Talk:Democratic Socialists of America

discussion of anti-Semitism controversy in lede section

i have restored a portion of the paragraph in the lede section, the original text of which centered on controversy from the pro-Hamas rally which took place in Times Square on Oct 8.

i recognize that discussing the controversy itself within the lede may constitute undue weight, and i have chosen to exclude that material from the text i restored, on the grounds that the GOP and the Democratic Party have been accusing each other of racism since time immemorial, and neither article dwells on the respective controversies in their lede sections.

however, discussion of the impact of the controversy on DSA’s congressional representation is clearly in-scope. my argument is not analytical, but mathematical — DSA is a small organization with a tiny congressional delegation, and therefore the disaffiliation of even a handful of its members in the House is noteworthy. if a third of the House Republican Conference were to resign overnight, that would clearly merit inclusion in the lede of the associated article.

isadora of ibiza (talk) 21:31, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The specific details and controversies connected with the NYC rally should not be discussed in the lead section at the top of the article. However, the fact that the DSA has received much criticism (not always in connection with the NYC rally) for its positions, and for the statements of various local chapters, with respect to the Hamas crimes, so that according to some the organization is now in something of a crisis, can certainly be mentioned in general terms... AnonMoos (talk) 15:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

My opinion on the matter is that it's far too soon to tell whether this will merit inclusion in the lead, and that including it too early risks running afoul of WP:NOTNEWS. The DSA has been around a long time, and many topics are covered in this rather extensive article, so I am wary of WP:RECENCY bias. Further, even with the perhaps WP:UNDUE level of coverage we've given to the 2023 NYC rally –– especially given the DSA's peripheral role in it –– a mention in the lead would at this point run counter to the advice given in MOS:LEAD that the lead should summarize the article body. Generalrelative (talk) 22:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Obviously we can't know now what the long-term significance of this will be many years in the future, but right now, many people who never heard of the DSA before are first hearing of it through this controversy, which means that it has some current significance AnonMoos (talk) 20:42, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

That's very true. The issue is just that on Wikipedia it's generally agreed we should try to avoid WP:RECENCY bias. In this case, highlighting this controversy in the lead might give readers the false sense that it is more central to the topic than DUE weight dictates (i.e. WP:FALSEBALANCE), which would be a disservice. Generalrelative (talk) 21:00, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

to be clear, WP:RECENCY is not an official policy, it is merely a common criticism of articles that provide a great deal of detail about events that are easily researched from online sources, and no corresponding detail about events that happened before.

an appropriate application of WP:RECENCY in this case would be if DSA had promoted many such rallies in the past, and received similarly broad rebukes from american society at large, but only the Oct 8 rally were mentioned in the lede. to my knowledge, this is not the case here. (although others who have been redwatching the organization for longer than me might contradict me.)

that something merely happened recently is not sufficient to invoke WP:RECENCY. the four members currently in the party’s congressional delegation (Ocasio-Cortez, Rashida Tlaib, Cori Bush, and Greg Casar) were all elected recently, but they are mentioned in the lede. if the delegation were to suddenly gain a fifth member, surely somebody would add that to the lede within days. in our case, the subject of the article did not gain, but lose a member over the controversy. additions and deletions should be treated equally.

isadora of ibiza (talk) 21:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

You might note that I said it's generally agreed we should try to avoid WP:RECENCY rather than using the language of policy. That said, some essays are much more widely cited than others, and this one is widely cited. It's probably best to think of it as a norm, much like WP:BRD. As for the rest, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Cheers, Generalrelative (talk) 21:53, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

no worries! i was only concerned that the phrasing generally agreed might be incorrectly read as synonymous with consensus. i myself cite WP:RECENCY quite often.

isadora of ibiza (talk) 22:32, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, this overly focuses on the federal level. Secondly, Bowman already left a year prior as per the citation, and Thanedar was never endorsed by DSA and was expelled from the organization a month prior, also per its citation, contrary to his claim of resignation, because he never was a socialist or an anti-Zionist and in fact is part of the capitalist class the DSA works to organize against. The analogy you're trying to make with the House Republican Conference is completely incomparable given that all three endorsed electeds at the federal level are staying with the organization and have led some of the actions that people like Thanedar denounce.

That said, it is notable enough to mention somewhere in the article (not the lede), which is why there is already a section that discusses it. 4kbw9Df3Tw (talk) 09:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

The accusations are based off of a rally held by a separate group of people that DSA initially endorsed before retracting it. Seems rather one-sided to include it. CeeeeeeNW (talk) 00:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2024

Requesting to add under State and local elections

In the 2023 off-year elections, DSA endorsed or affiliated candidates retained the majority of the local seats initially won during the 2019 municipal elections. Indianapolis chapter-endorsed candidate Jesse Brown won the Democratic primary for district 13 against the incumbent vice president of the Indianapolis City-County Council. In the 2023 Chicago aldermanic elections, the Chicago City Council Democratic Socialist Caucus gained a seat with the election of Angela Clay for ward 46. Aurin Chowdhury, endorsed by the Twin Cities DSA and the Minneapolis DFL was elected in the 2023 Minneapolis elections for ward 12. In Denver, DSA endorsed candidate Sarah Parady won a tight race for the city's at-large seat, while Candi CdeBaca lost her re-election for district 9. Hoosier24 (talk) 06:40, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Suggestion to add "Marxism" to the ideology section

DSA would be a Marxist organization, not only in the initial creation of the organization, but with the growth of a left-wing within it that bring Marxism to it. I think it can be added, but I'll leave it up for discussion. CeeeeeeNW (talk) 00:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

What reliable sources refer to DSA as "marxist"? – Muboshgu (talk) 01:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

There this piece from DSA's Socialist Forum that discusses Marxism and its relation to socialism:

https://socialistforum.dsausa.org/issues/fall-2021/marxism-and-democracy/

On top of that, several caucuses in the DSA adhere explicity to different Marxist tendencies:

https://reformandrevolution.org/

https://www.marxistunity.com/

https://breadandrosesdsa.org/

https://redstarcaucus.org/

I would believe it's appropriate to list Marxism within the ideology section given how prominent Marxism is. CeeeeeeNW (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain why you began your list with an article written by the late Michael Harrington in 1981? The DSA is considerably different from when he founded it and most current members had not even been born then. TFD (talk) 17:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Because Michael Harrington was the founding member of the DSA, and his mention and invoking of Marxism speaks about its contribution. Newer members make a stronger case for it too, seeing as many consoder themselves to be Marxists. CeeeeeeNW (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

If anything Marxism has become a much more prominent force within DSA since Harrington's time Shlumpsters (talk) 07:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I added two citations to the section from Michael Harrington's article, and a newer articles written by the original members of DSA with a direct quote making the case. I don't think it should have been reverted like that, but I hope the citations provide enough clarity for it to remain. CeeeeeeNW (talk) 04:17, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Shlumpsters that Marxism has become a more significant force within DSA. However, I don't think that the sources you provided indicate that DSA is currently Marxist. I think at most, it indicates that many early leaders, including Harrington, were Marxist or sympathetic to Marx.

I also hesitate to cite the caucuses listed, per WP:Synth. I think they'd be appropriate to use in the political positions section but none of them call DSA a Marxist organization.

I think the paragraph on the tendencies within DSA and the paragraph about how the NPC is now Marxist-majority reflects the prominence of Marxism within DSA well. Ze0n (talk) 20:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

DSA doesn't officially call itself "Marxist"; only certain caucuses do. It'd be incorrect to call DSA as a whole "Marxist". AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 06:54, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

DSA is not a party-line organization and has little self-description beyond it's platform and more recent 2024 program https://2024.dsausa.org/ Shlumpsters (talk) 11:16, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

"Left-wing to far left"?

I noticed that the ideology section in the infobox gets periodically changed by different editors.

Two months ago, the box said "Left-wing to far-left". Then a month ago, it just said "Left-wing". As of right now, the "far-left" part was readded.

I think the DSA is undoubtedly left-wing given its anti-capitalist platform, but I do think adding "far-left" isn't warranted. The two sources being used to describe it as such are about small communist caucuses that make up a relatively tiny portion of the entire DSA and there isn't enough evidence to indicate these are major tendencies within it.

This would be akin to adding "left-wing" under the UK Labour Party's ideology because of it having a left-wing faction (the Campaign Group). Yet nevertheless, it's only listed as Center-Left.

At best, these sources could be used as grounds to add "Factions: Far-left", but not to put it as one of its major ideological positions. Okonomiyaki39 (talk) 03:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably best to leave out the field. Basically it is the opinion of Wikipedia editors where they place the DSA along the political spectrum. It adds no additional information, considering that the groups ideology is already mentioned and is fairly obvious from the name. TFD (talk) 05:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not really "far-left" in terms of world political movements, but over the past year its foreign policy positions have been far out of the United States mainstream, and have drifted to become ever more extreme (as seen when Nerdeen Kiswani is declared to be untouchable and beyond even the slightest criticism). Congratulations if you can find a handy two-word phrase to express this reality... AnonMoos (talk) 17:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's make "far-left" a note or something, I think that's best. Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Within the broad spectrum of american politics DSA is essentially "left to far-left". If you're looking for a middle ground perhaps "left" with "far-left" and "center-left" would be appropriate but the sole "center-left" caucus is barely larger than the maoist caucus, both of which are puny compared to the myriad of communist caucuses which make up the majority of the organization. Shlumpsters (talk) 11:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It's of my opinion to keep it. DSA is left-wing in the context of American politics, while there are also factions within the party that are further leftward in the context of the U.S. overton window. CeeeeeeNW (talk) 04:24, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

fix source 1

Source 1 is the source used for the number of members of the DSA in 2024 but it just links to a page discussing what is democratic socialism which does not anywhere on it say the number of members in the DSA on the page itself. The only place on the DSA website that says the number of members that I could find is a little pop up at the bottom which appears on certain screens such (and does appear on the what is democratic socialism at the bottom along with the get involved pages etc.) it only says 'The Democratic Socialists of America is the largest socialist organization in the United States, with over 90,000 members.' - https://www.dsausa.org/get-involved/ but it does not say 92,000 like it does on the DSA wikipedia page. I think this source should be changed to a more reliable source though I am unsure how to find it. I could not find anything else on the DSA website that goes more in-depth with the membership number though I only briefly looked or you could possibly find another source like a 2nd hand one. Communistsam23 (talk) 05:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)