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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Arbitration Committee proceedings
Request name Motions Initiated Votes
Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area   6 November 2024 0/5/0
[edit]
Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Yasuke 13 Nov 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral) Motion (orig. case) 15 November 2024
Arbitration enforcement referral: Nableezy, et al none (orig. case) 15 November 2024
Clarification request: Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee none none 15 November 2024

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for arbitration


Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area

Initiated by BilledMammal (talk) at 04:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by BilledMammal

There is ongoing coordination of off-wiki editors for the purpose of promoting a pro-Palestinian POV, utilizing a discord group, as well as an EEML-style mailing list (Private Evidence A).

A significant participant in the discord group, as well as the founder of the mailing list (Private Evidence B), is a community banned editor (Private Evidence C), who since being banned has engaged in the harassment and outing of Wikipedia editors (Private Evidence D). This individual has substantial reach (Private Evidence E), and their list appears to have been joined by a substantial number of editors, although I am only confident of the identify of three.

The Discord group was previously public, but has now become private to better hide their activities (Private Evidence F). It is not compliant with policy, organizing non-ECP editors to make edits within the topic area. It is also used by the banned editor to make edit requests, which are acted upon (Private Evidence G).

<specific claims based on private evidence removed> Primefac (talk) 12:16, 9 November 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Additional comments

@CaptainEek: Already done. BilledMammal (talk) 05:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I emailed arbcom-en an hour ago. BilledMammal (talk) 05:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to blocked sock
@CarmenEsparzaAmoux: I wasn’t aware of that discussion at the Navalny talk page, but it doesn’t change the overall concerns, except to add canvassing. That discussion was the first and last time you ever edited that page - and I find it interesting that Brusquedandelion also joined that discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 21:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To address concerns about the nature of the posting:

I posted a case request:
  1. To centralise the existing discussions
  2. To get a resolution to this evidence, one way or the other
  3. To encourage evidence from others who have knowledge of this
I considered posting as SWATJester described, but:
  1. I would find it more frustrating being told only that I am accused of "something"
  2. While too vague for the community to be aware of the details, it is specific enough for Ïvana, Salmoonlight, and Brusquedandelion to be able to prepare counter-arguments and evidence.
  3. The evidence structure makes it, I believe, easier for ArbCom to review.
  4. I misinterpreted the Admissibility of evidence section as meaning only that I couldn't post the evidence - not that I couldn't refer to it.

BilledMammal (talk) 04:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra: I can see why you may be unable to recognize the specifics of this. I don't think they need it, but if they do ArbCom has my permission to share anything they see fit with you. BilledMammal (talk) 04:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Super Goku V: The evidence predates PirateWires. BilledMammal (talk) 04:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CaptainEek: I wasn't involved in that back and forth with Ivana at ARCA; I haven't contributed to that discussion since September. My reasons for posting this now was because it was seeing discussion at various noticeboards, including AE and ANI, and for a reason I'll provide in private evidence. BilledMammal (talk) 10:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ïvana

Echoing what other editors have already said, it is puzzling that a case where almost all of the evidence is private, so public comments won't be able to add much to it, is presented in this way. I was planning to mail ARBCOM requesting a copy of it. I don't really understand how this works because I never had to, so I was under the assumption that I should be able to see the evidence presented against me, because I don't know how I am expected to defend myself if I am not able to see/understand what I'm being accused of (for example what the hell is a EEML-style mailing list? Who is this "community-banned" editor?) but based on Kevin's comments it seems I'm not allowed to do that. So what's the point of this? Since the evidence is private my defense should be private as well, leaving me limited to say almost nothing in this public space and, to the privy eyes, of which there are many, look guilty by omission. This whole thing seems purposely vague. I'm sure that the off-wiki agitators who have been harassing me for months and who constantly rely on data compiled by BM will not fill in the blanks with atrocities to generate outrage to try to pressure ARBCOM to act the way they want.

Also, Chess, stop purposely misinterpreting what I've said and putting words in my mouth. Recent example here - I told Scharb (a clear sock gaming the system to become a SPA btw), not you, that if they have proof of me canvassing they should make a proper report. Everyone can see my comments in ARCA, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. I have never linked or talked about any specific off-wiki account and I don't plan to, so your logic of "well Ivana talked about A but that really means B so I can do C" is ridiculous and a really bad justification to violate WP:OUTING. If I say I have an Instagram account, does that give you a green light to post and publicly discuss links of profiles you assume to belong to me? I don't think so. You also seem to know what some of this private evidence is, specifically a supposed Telegram chat that hasn't been shared in WP, or anywhere else. That chat has also only come up in this case so its brand new information. I have never said I was part of any chat. I don't even know what BM is referring to, none of the people accused here has had access to the private evidence. So where did you see it? Has BM shared it with you? Because that is definitely outing (even if the evidence is doctored, because you're operating under the assumption that it is true) and a gross violation. I expect this to be taken seriously. And I don't appreciate you constantly trying to get me outed or alluding to it. Cut it out. - Ïvana (talk) 19:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Salmoonlight

I don't interact with other Wikipedia editors and I have never heard of this canvassing list. I act alone. I also only talk regularly in one public Discord server. Salmoonlight (talk) 05:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And why am I still getting pulled into this even when I am topic-banned? Salmoonlight (talk) 05:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Provided additional evidence" ??? Salmoonlight (talk) 05:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huldra2

I have never been on Discord (didn't even know what it was, before it popped up here), and I have been editing wp since 2005, before Discord even existed(? I think) Also, I have created nearly 300 articles, for various reasons;
  • Sometime because I saw a village that didn't have an article on en.wp, but did have an article in other wikipedias.
  • sometimes because I saw something reported in the news, or on social media ( like blogs[1]: Turki al-Hamad), which didn't have an article,
  • sometimes because I have used them as a source (Wolf-Dieter Hütteroth),
  • and once I even started an article about someone, because I had visited a museum for her (Emily Ruete..nice little museum for her in Zanzibar)
  • As for the Chen Kugel-article, best as I recall, I looked at which other places on en.wp he was mentioned, and used those sources. I have no idea as to which " banned editor" is referred to, Huldra (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • PS: I have never been part of a "EEML-style mailing list". I have, however, communicated via email, with wp editors (both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian); mostly getting/exchanging RS sources. I have also communicated with others about death threats and rape threats and "outing attempts" (when I felt totally let down by the WMF T&S), Huldra (talk) 22:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any chance I could see the "(Private Evidence M)" against me? Huldra (talk) 22:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am still wondering what "community-banned editor" I "proxied for"....? Could someone please tell me, as I am in the dark? Huldra (talk) 22:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, User:Alaexis for that YouTube-link: I have now wasted nearly 2 hours of my life watching it; before anyone else do the same: it is nearly all in Arabic. And boy, have you watched it closely: I needed 3 watchings before I found that "hunt them for the rest of their lives", and my understanding is that it was a suggested project, not an actual project. What they said about Wikipedia (at least in English) I actually agree with: to fight misinformation with facts, Huldra (talk) 22:45, 7 November 2024 (UTC),[reply]
  • Well, BilledMammal has now permitted Arb.com to share with me the "secret evidence"; I have emailed arb.com asking for it, but has not yet heard back. So this process is still Kafkaesque to me: I have seriously NO idea as to which "banned editor" I apparently have been proxing for. I started the Chen Kugel-article, as there were a lot of mentioning of him on social media (twitter), as people were upset that he said he had seen beheaded babies on oct 7, when there were 0 beheaded babies. Nothing unusual in that (for me): I have started articles on wp because I have seen them mentioned on social media since 2005 (Turki al-Hamad), Huldra (talk) 20:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • PS: Were the "twitterati" who mentioned him banned on wikipedia? I have absolutely no idea; they for sure didn't identify themselves as such: that I would have remembered.
  • I'm understanding less and less. So I am named as a party in an arb.com-case named "Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area", but I am not to know what I am supposed to have done. I have still not had an email from arb.com. Just now I am tempted to change my nick from "Huldra" to "Josef K.", cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still haven't had any email from arb.com about the so-called "secret evidence", May I ask: is this because you are just delayed, or is it because the answer is no: you have no intention of sharing it with me? Huldra (talk) 23:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Brusquedandelion

Statement by CarmenEsparzaAmoux

This user has now been blocked as a checkuser-confirmed sock.
I do not have a Discord. I do not communicate with editors off-Wiki—let alone edit for others—community banned or otherwise. My edit on Navalny's page was following his death, part of a long-running talk page discussion about the inclusion of his comments comparing Caucasus Muslim immigrants to cockroaches. These other two edits... I added info from widely publicized New York Times articles? CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 21:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BilledMammal Navalny had just died. I don't edit in articles related to Russia at all, but even I read his article when he died. The day I made that edit, his article had more than 300,000 views and his talk alone had more than 600. [2] CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 21:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chess

Per what I said at WP:ARCA, there is strong circumstantial evidence of User:CoolAndUniqueUsername's involvement. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Going with what has publicly been revealed:
  • Ivana has admitted to linking AN threads on Discord for others to comment on.
  • Ivana was publicly asked to be the head of a "blitz team" to coordinate the editing of articles.
Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reminder that if the accused wants the evidence to be public, they can make it so. WP:OUTING applies here to the extent Ivana et al haven't revealed their identities in the Telegram chat onwiki. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zero0000: Corrected. I'm aware and my point is the rules are to protect them. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 18:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Alaexis: Minor correction, the Discord group had some level of onwiki presence. See User:BilledMammal/tfp Wikipedia collaboration linked above.
Also, the Telegram channel is a separate (but publicly accessible) group.
With respect to the "private evidence", there are many editors that have independently stumbled upon this. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Floquenbeam: Most of these accusations against TFP were made in a news article Elon Musk retweeted 2 weeks ago.[3] Ivana was called out by name in that article as well another one by Jewish Insider in June.[4] This is included in Wikipedia and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict#Tech for Palestine. If ArbCom wishes to hold this case in secret, it needs to make a public statement acknowledging so and explaining very clearly what precedents it is using. Banning BM and nuking the page would probably be the absolute worst possible thing ArbCom can do at this point given these accusations have been out for months with no response. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Floquenbeam: ArbCom should at least acknowledge the situation and publicly explain what they are doing. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dan Murphy

Yoinks! A private-evidence extravaganza of a star chamber. Sounds like a GREAT idea! And from such a clean set of hands.Dan Murphy (talk) 04:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Most of these accusations against TFP were made in a news article Elon Musk retweeted 2 weeks ago. Ivana was called out by name in that article as well another one by Jewish Insider in June..." My God! Offsite canvassing involving Elon Musk and other committed partisans! How deep does this rabbit hole of smears and innuendo go?! <sarcasm off> One of the contributors to this page, Alexis, has even insinuated that some of these Wikipedia editors are involved in an effort to hunt down and kill Israeli soldiers, not a shred of credible evidence provided. And here this pile sits.Dan Murphy (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Liz

The claims of that article on coordinated editing along with this case request are pretty accusatory, I just hope that the private evidence sent to the committee warrants an investigation. Not being privy to this information, it will be difficult for us regular editors to make arguments on whether or not this request should be accepted. I hope this request doesn't devolve into statements based on suspicions without evidence. Liz Read! Talk! 08:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by David A

I apologise if I am disturbing, misunderstanding what is allowed, or getting too paranoid here, but how did BilledMammal, as a supposedly regular editor, get ahold of such extremely specific and private information, if it is even reliable? This seems suspicious given that:

  1. BilledMammal has participated in several attempts to delegitimise and thereby remove all references from Al Jazeera from Wikipedia, which is the main news organisation that reports war crimes by the Israeli government. [5] [6] [7]
  2. I read a comment by another Wikipedia editor regarding that a recent news article that attacked Wikipedia used information organised by BilledMammal in one of their userspaces. [8] [9]
  3. Shortly afterwards, Elon Musk, who will soon have control over the United States economy, apparently retweeted the article in front of over 52.7 million people while attacking Wikipedia, and then BilledMammal waited until right after the United States election had finished, which Donald Trump won, as Benjamin Netanyahu and a statistical majority of the population of Israel wished, to initiate an arbitration process against some of the editors with differing viewpoints regarding the conflict between the Israeli government and the Palestinians, that he had previously extensively catalogued the activity of in one of the links above. [10]

David A (talk) 09:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There may also be two other potential concerns here. One is that it is likely quite easy to doctor evidence in the form of screencapture images from chat rooms with modern technology, and another is that it is also easy for people to claim to be/impersonate others online. Just because somebody in a chat room claims to be a specific Wikipedia editor, this does not automatically make it a fact. David A (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

To editor BilledMammal: Did you obtain this evidence personally, or are you passing on what you received from someone else? Zerotalk 12:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor Chess: You wrote "WP:OUTING applies here to the extent Ivana et al haven't revealed their identities in the Telegram chat." Maybe I misunderstand you, but to be clear it is not allowed to copy personal identifying information to here from an external site even if that information was voluntarily revealed on the external site. That is made clear by the very first sentence of OUTING: "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia. (bold in original). Also see this RfC. Zerotalk 12:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is dated, but if you don't think similar stuff is going on now I have a bridge to sell you:
[11] My favorite quote is "to ensure that it's balanced and Zionist in nature". Zerotalk 15:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Simonm223

I'm a bit aghast that this arbitration case exists and I sincerely hope that it is rejected by the arbitration committee. Targeting specific editors for this based on supposed private evidence is borderline McCarthyism especially as the motivation is a blog of a right-wing agitator with an axe to grind against the supposed progressivism of Wikipedia. Please, let's not do this. Simonm223 (talk) 13:37, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly share @Super Goku V's concern. Simonm223 (talk) 12:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Contrary to @Swatjester I would suggest, moving forward, that the Arbitration Committee simply procedurally refuse any request for a case that depends exclusively, or primarily, on private evidence. Wikipedia must never become a star chamber. Simonm223 (talk) 19:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Alaexis I don't know what, exactly, your link to that Youtube video has to do with this farce. I really couldn't care less if people, even if they have similar usernames to Wikipedians, dislike the IOF. That is not something that Wikipedia should ever adjudicate on. Simonm223 (talk) 19:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with @LilianaUwU that a boomerang is appropriate here. Simonm223 (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Super Goku V

@BilledMammal: You might want to request an extension on this. That aside, I have concerns that some of the evidence is tied to Pirate Wires. I voiced my concerns about them in a related situation just over a week ago and I don't think I am alone based on some of the comments at the PirateWires Wikipedia Investigation discussion linked to. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Parabolist

So instead of just sending all of this incredible evidence to the arbs, we get this grandstanding case request, where BilledMammal gets to accuse a host of editors of a litany of crimes without actually needing to post proof. The entire point of arbs receiving private evidence by email is so that this doesn't happen. And considering how weak some of the claims are (One editor's crime is simply being in a Telegram group? BM doesn't even think they edited?) it looks like a great deal of wall-bound spaghetti. (Private Evidence Z-3) Parabolist (talk) 09:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

If the only evidence for a claim is private material then the accusation should be made in private as well. Iff the committee feels that the evidence has merit then yes some public statement or motion is in order. But right now an editor is making very public accusations against editors and then saying they cannot share any evidence. As the filer here previously said I am concerned that this is quickly turning into a witch-hunt, with editors tossing out accusations with little to no evidence, accusations that in a different forum would result in a boomerang as often as not. I think it would be beneficial for the committee to instruct editors to avoid issuing accusations unless they have some form of evidence for them, and to remind editors that posting unsupported accusations - casting aspersions - can result in sanctions. Obviously I don’t know what evidence exists here, but having the accusations made publicly and the evidence provided privately strikes me as a convenient way of smearing the names of editors to the wider community. If y’all are on board with that ok I guess, but if this is entirely reliant on private evidence then a. There isn’t anything any body else can offer here making the preliminary statements utterly pointless, and b. I hope if the evidence is not convincing that there is just as public an apology to the users who were accused. nableezy - 13:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ca

I joined the Discord server after concerns were raised at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel § Canvassing. According to official announcement, they set to private their Wikipedia editing channel due to doxing concerns. I inquired on the status of their Wikipedia editing activities, and one user said they were suspended for the same reason. and one The organizers seemed largely clueless in the workings of Wikipedia; one appeared to be using ChatGPT in an attempt to code a bot to canvass participating editors into discussions. Ca talk to me! 14:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Girth Summit

I've just now become aware of this arbitration request. I know nothing about the dispute this case centres around, but I came here to note that a few minutes ago, following my investigation at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jpesch95, I blocked one of the parties, CarmenEsparzaAmoux, as a suspected sock. This was based on behaviour, rather than CU data, but I have not gone into the specifics of my findings per WP:BEANS. I'd be happy to explain further if anyone from the committee wants to reach out by email. Girth Summit (blether) 17:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just adding that I've since been able to confirm the connection with CU. Girth Summit (blether) 21:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jéské Couriano

@KevinL: This is not the first time ArbCom has had to deal with bad actors in the PIA area who are coordinating off-wiki, so there is precedent for taking this case just within the PIA area itself. (If you want non-PIA precedent, may I interest you in EEML or WTC?) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 17:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SWATJester

This is a gap of process. Nableezy hits on this here, with his point "a": if this is entirely reliant on private evidence then a. There isn’t anything any body else can offer here making the preliminary statements utterly pointless, and b. I hope if the evidence is not convincing that there is just as public an apology to the users who were accused. I think this case would have been better filed if everything within the "Statement from BilledMammal" portion were replaced with "Private evidence has been submitted in regards to the above named parties." And that's it. As Nableezy said, there's nothing anyone can or needs to do in the preliminary statements portion if they can't respond to the allegations adequately, which means there's no point in listing the allegations either. Verifying that a request was indeed submitted, and naming the parties are the only things this should provide, IMO, as I do think *some* degree of public awareness that a case was filed is better than just privately emailing the committee and hoping for a response in several days or weeks. The Committee should consider formalizing that into a process, or updating the case-filing guide, for these types of requests in the future. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 19:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For everyone who's @-ing me, I need y'all to understand that my point above is speaking to process in general regarding private evidence, not the content specific to this one in particular. I'm not making an opinion on the suitability of the video, or whether this particular case should be filed, or what happened off-wiki on this particular matter. I'm saying that as a general process, if all or substantially all of a case request is being based on private evidence from the requester, then I think that the public statement on this page should be strictly limited to just identifying that evidence was submitted and naming the parties. I think this part is necessary, because without it -- assuming a case gets accepted, heard, and completed -- Arbcom will appear to just magically be handing down a ruling out of nowhere, and it's a surprise to everyone. Furthermore, since Arbcom is currently struggling with activity constraints, having public acknowledgement that a request was made serves as a receipt for the requestor (and other interested parties) to be able to follow up on if we don't eventually see a resolution in a timely fashion. Y'all can characterize Arbcom as a star chamber however you like, but that ship has long since sailed -- the committee has longstanding precedent for acting on private evidence. I'm less interested in relitigating that, and more interested in filling the gap in the process for the instructions to a filer on *how* to do that, because the current process -- whether you view it as being intentional or not -- has the capability of making a filing be functionally an aspersion. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 00:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alaexis

Plenty of users have expressed concerns that the case is based on private evidence. I have no idea what kind of evidence it is, but there is publicly available evidence of pretty impressively organised off-wiki coordination, please see this video [12], starting from 1:57:43. One of the projects (unclear whether it's related to Wikipedia or not) of the group was doxing IDF soldiers to "hunt them for the rest of their lives" (1:58:23). Alaexis¿question? 19:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In case something happens with the video on Youtube, I've downloaded it. Alaexis¿question? 19:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Swatjester, the video shows posts on Discord with the tag tfp-wikipedia-collaboration with various Wikipedia-related tasks. This is WP:CANVASSING (notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way) which is is considered disruptive behavior. Off-wiki communication is strongly discouraged (WP:STEALTH).
Almost all boxes are ticked: it's biased, partisan and done in secrecy (or semi-secrecy - even if the board was public its existence certainly wasn't disclosed on Wikipedia). Alaexis¿question? 21:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chess, thanks for correcting me, TFP did have a Wikipedia page at some point (still, other editors would generally be unaware that there is a coordinated campaign being managed on Discord). Even without secrecy, it's still a clear case of canvassing. Alaexis¿question? 22:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Floq

Wait, what? I usually stay a minimum of 50 yards away from anything to do with Israel/Palestine, but I took a quick glance at this for some reason. I'm amazed. You can make serious public accusations based on private evidence? I'm pretty surprised this hasn't already been removed by an arb or a clerk, possibly even rev-del'd, and BM maybe arbcom banned at least until they acknowledge they can't do this in the future. At least told in no uncertain terms to file this privately. You want to use private evidence, file a private case, and let arbcom figure out how to handle it. If this was any other forum, like AN/ANI, I'd likely have already personally removed this, rev-deled it, and indef blocked BM with no talk page access. --I guess arbcom's glacial pace means BM has found a loophole. Floquenbeam (talk) 22:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chess: "Do your own research" isn't really how ArbCom operates. We can't make public accusations and then refer to "Private Evidence A-O". Even if the evidence is also on Twitter. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DatGuy

@Alaexis: I don't see how your linked video holds any relevance to this case at all. The (albeit limited) blurbs displayed at your linked timestamp don't reveal any disallowed Wikipedia behaviour. There's also no mention of canvassing. DatGuyTalkContribs 22:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

re: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jpesch95, a timeline for their ban evasion accounts is available here for interest. Since they appear to operate multiple accounts in parallel, I assume there may be some undetected accounts out there. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Ivanvector's interesting theory, ...consider how repeatedly turning away new editors from participating in open discussions here, by way of goalpost-moving ARBECR enforcement creep, naturally leads to the consequence of those new editors coordinating off-wiki. Is this statement true? It could be true, it's plausible, but it is not currently supported by evidence, and although I've thought about possible unintended consequences of ECR too, I'm not quite sure how to measure it.

Setting aside the fact that new editors are limited to edit requests because of the observed consequences of not doing that going back over a decade, some counterarguments might be

  • Coordinating off-wiki, external (private or state-supported) influence operations etc. pre-date the existence of the extendedconfirmed privilege, let alone ARBECR.
  • Statistics suggest it's real-world events that have a very significant impact on PIA related activity levels both on and off-site, rather than changes in things like article protection or ARBECR.
  • Coordinating off-wiki appears to be a "natural" feature of contentious topic areas.

In reality, a large number of content edits and talk page discussions continue to be made by non-EC actors because the topic area is largely open and the amount of ECR enforcement really depends on the time-scale used to observe it. My views on protection are here. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LilianaUwU

I thought private evidence was supposed to be private? No but seriously, this is worrisome that BilledMammal could just basically post private evidence without posting it. I think a boomerang is in order. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 08:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by berchanhimez

Initial comments that have not resulted in any discussion/response, including from arbitrators
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I see nowhere in the arbitration guide or procedures that's immediately visible that prohibits someone who submits private evidence to the Arbitration Committee during the process of requesting a case from posting their own summary of that evidence publicly (in line with policies on Outing, of course). To quote WP:A/G, which seems like the place that should be, Requests for an arbitration case are made on the "Case" subpage. Other types of requests, usually in relation to cases which have already been closed, are instead made at the "Clarifications and Amendments" subpage. Nowhere does it say that an editor wishing for a case to be opened based primarily or solely on private evidence must only submit that evidence to the Committee and not post anything publicly about such request.

In fact, if there were a prohibition on making a public case request solely based on private evidence, it would hinder the ability of other editors who may have their own private evidence from knowing "hey, this is a good time to submit my evidence to the Committee, since they already have some other evidence from someone else". Further, it hinders the ability of the "defendant(s)" in the case to respond, as they would not be aware that an editor has submitted private evidence to the Committee. There are multiple aspects of the Arbitration process that are exempt from policies/procedures that apply elsewhere on Wikipedia. I believe BilledMammal has made the accusations in this case request in good faith and that the evidence they have submitted privately to the Committee is, at least at face value, in partial or full support of the accusations they've made.

Regardless, there should be no boomerang from publicly posting this case request. The Arbitration Committee should clarify what a user submitting a case request based solely or in large part on private information should post publicly - but they should ensure that any case requested, even one based solely on private information, at a minimum is able to have a summary of the accusations and the accused party/parties posted publicly. Whether this is done by the person reporting the private evidence or the Committee themselves is up for debate - but it should not be possible to submit private evidence against users and the first they hear of it is a private case being opened against them. Nor should it be possible for a private case to be refused just because one editor's information submitted is insufficient, without other concerned editors being given a public notice that there is consideration of evidence in a matter to be afforded an opportunity to submit their own.

Respectfully, -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 11:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am quite sad that even though the process of "filing a private case" has been questioned or pointed out as insufficiently documented by multiple people here, arbitrators in their votes so far are choosing to "decline the public case request without prejudice". That only reinforces what I have pointed out is a severe issue. While posting private evidence publicly is obviously problematic, there needs to be significant clarification in the Arbitration Policy and procedures as to how case requests based solely or primarily on private evidence should be handled - both as it relates to the case as a whole and any particular party. It is not fair to editors that a private case be opened with them as a party out of the blue. It is akin to a first mover's advantage - to use this case as an example, BM has obviously spent significant time compiling their evidence - but unless this public case request with parties was made, there would be no way for any of the parties to even know that evidence had been submitted to ArbCom. Let's say that it takes ArbCom 10 days to decide to open a case based on private evidence. The filing party, and anyone else they've chosen to make aware privately, has now had yet another 10 days to compile "prosecutorial" evidence against the parties - without those parties not even being aware they're being investigated - and without other editors who weren't notified by the person submitting privately to AC being able to have time to compile their thoughts and evidence.
Sure, AC can handle this with extensions to phases of the case. But that shouldn't be necessary - a public case requests without accusations is the bare minimum the community should accept. If this is a new template for a private case request that only lists parties with a statement "I have submitted evidence privately to ArbCom concerning these editors regarding [topic area or short summary of issue that doesn't violate policy]", then fine. If this is ArbCom agreeing that any private evidence they recieve that may result in a case will result in a public statement by ArbCom ASAP even while it's still being considered, then fine. But the policy needs to be clarified to reflect whatever the decision is on this matter - the chilling effect of so many editors blaming or going after BM for attempting to make the editors involved and the community aware of this potential case during the case request phase will result in worse Arbitration than using this as a catalyst to improve the policy/procedures to directly address three things:
  1. How cases based solely/primarily on private evidence should be notified to the community for further input - including if only some parties are being considered based solely on private evidence for an otherwise public case request.
  2. What the person submitting such a case request is expected to do to notify the community they have done so (if anything), and what ArbCom will do to ensure there is ample public notification of the case request ASAP for virtually all circumstances where others in the community may have valid input or other evidence that would assist AC in their determination
  3. Defining what a "private case request" is (such as what people think this is) versus just private evidence that is not being intended to directly result in a case being opened (such as private information about sockpuppetry that is being discussed between functionaries, private information related to a clarification/amendment, etc) - and ensuring publicity of summaries/etc. wherever possible, regardless of whether it's the submitting party or AC's responsibility to provide this.
I'm happy that I don't see BM being faulted for their misinterpretation of unpublished rules. Please use this as a case to amend or modify the official Arbitration pages and procedures/guides to reflect these "unwritten rules" so that other editors do not make the same mistake, and to ensure community involvement is invited where possible. Regards, -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 06:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ivanvector

I encourage the committee and the community to consider how repeatedly turning away new editors from participating in open discussions here, by way of goalpost-moving ARBECR enforcement creep, naturally leads to the consequence of those new editors coordinating off-wiki. Perhaps, rather than expanding the creep into literally doxxing those editors (which I agree ought to have been met with a sanction), a review of that provision is what's needed here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Carrite

It's time for Arbcom to put its foot down on this secret denunciations nonsense. If there's a case, make your case publicly should be the rule. Casting public aspersions based on secret denunciations is galling and should be dealt with harshly. Carrite (talk) 16:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf

I think the best way forward for case requests based on private evidence in the future would be something like:

  • Step 1: Filer sends evidence privately to ArbCom
  • Step 2: Filer opens a public case request with only
    • A neutral title (e.g. "canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area") that does not include the names of any editors
    • Themself as the only party
    • A statement that they have submitted private evidence about this to the Arbitration Committee, with enough context that the Committee knows whether they have received all of it. e.g. "there are 6 emails with subject lines starting "Private case request")
  • Step 3: An arbitrator confirms whether they have received (all) the evidence
  • Step 4: After a short period of time, the Arbitration Committee public state either that it is clear there is no case and dismisses the request, clear there will be a case (see below), or that it is unclear and it is still being discussed (internally, with the filer and/or with proposed parties as appropriate). If it is unclear and further evidence from other editors might help, this should be explicitly solicited at this point.
  • Step 5: If there is to be a case, the Committee posts as much as they can publicly, alongside details of case structure, etc.

This would seem to allow for as much transparency as possible without outing or casting aspersions. Thryduulf (talk) 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra: It is possible that they are still deciding whether they feel you have a case to answer (e.g. if the allegations against you are deemed not be credible then there is no benefit to you seeing them). It's also possible that the evidence has not been presented in a way allows for easy splitting, e.g. it may be that the allegations and/or supporting evidence regarding you are intermingled with private evidence relating to other parties. If this is the case then the Committee will want to be sure that spending the time disentangling it is worthwhile - which it almost certainly will not be if the evidence presented does not justify an arbitration case with you as a party. Thryduulf (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Just Step Sideways

I have to agree with what Floq, Kevin, and others have said about what is going on here. These are extremely serious allegations based on private evidence. There should not be a public case where a user can publicly make such accusations when they can't publicly back them up. Take the case against me as an example: all that evidence was private, so a case was had in private. To this day I don't even know who asked for it, that's how private it was, and I was still on the main mailing list at the time. This request should be shelved and BM reprimanded for proceeding in this manner. Reprimand yourselves for letting it go on this long while you're at it. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given what's now come to light, as was kind of hinted at right at the beginning of the filing, it is maybe somewhat easier to understand why BM approached this the way they did, but I still strongly believe the committee should have immediately asked for the specific accusations directed at specific users, with no on-wiki evidence, be removed. I also think perhaps a matter for next years' committee should be to make some sort of clarification of how to file a private or hybrid case request without running into this issue. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 23:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde93

It really bothers me that the allegations that are a part of this request are still on this page, while the evidence is not. I assume ARBCOM will debate the private evidence and then post their conclusions: why are these accusations allowed to stand, regardless of their merit, in a place and manner where the accused cannot answer? If ARBCOM wants to notify the community that you are considering this evidence, why not leave a neutral placeholder to that effect, with named parties but no accusations? Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

@CaptainEek: BilledMammal did send us a lot of this several months ago and we just didn't do anything with it Can we assume that this was because said evidence was not probative/persuasive? At any rate, it is difficult to make any sensible comments about this filing, there being nothing to comment upon. Selfstudier (talk) 11:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by FOARP

I think the fact that BM raised all this privately months ago and then got no feedback, not even a "yeah, no" response, goes a long way to explaining their actions, and that the people recommending sanctions against BM need to revise their views in that light. I certainly have had my own experiences of BM's editing where it really felt like they were pushing things a bit too far, but if I had totally blanked them and refused to engage, I could hardly have blamed them for raising their issues in a forum that could not be ignored. FOARP (talk) 21:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sir Kenneth Kho

@FOARP I don't think an experienced good-faith editor such as BM should be sanctioned. However, I don't think BM's maneuver is justified either, I am quite sure both sides have their own "damning" private evidence, but both sides need to allow ArbCom to take its time. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 23:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by Robert McClenon (Covert Canvassing)

On the one hand, I agree with the large number of editors who have sharply criticized the filing of this case request. Stating publicly that a case request is based on private evidence has the same disadvantage of lack of transparency of a true private filing, but sometimes true private filings are necessary, and this request does not have the advantage of respecting privacy. On the other hand, not to excuse the filing editor, this filing is another illustration that there are ugly undercurrents about conflicts involving the editing of articles on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. ArbCom should not accept this case, but it is time for ArbCom to take action beyond three months of background discussion, preferably by opening ARBPIA5 and invoking At Wit's End, or at least by finalizing the rules that have been under consideration for three months. There are likely to be other troublesome filings, both here and at WP:ANI, as long as ArbCom delays taking action on battleground editing in a continuing real battleground. Dismiss this request, possibly with censure to the filing party, but open a formal case with both public and truly private evidence. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Covert canvassing and proxying in Israel-Arab Conflict: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Covert canvassing and proxying in Israel-Arab Conflict: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/5/0>

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

@BilledMammal I take it you're referring to the email dating from July? I can't say that you have that email lined up nicely with "private evidence A, B, C" and so on. Or have you just sent something? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 05:37, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am troubled by the process here. Ordinarily, it is impermissible to cast aspersions on editors, as documented at WP:ASPERSIONS and as grounded in policy at WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and WP:CIV. I am concerned that @BilledMammal's reliance on off-wiki evidence to make public, on-wiki accusations of misconduct, without any finding by the Committee that such misconduct did in fact occur, is inconsistent with those policies.
    There's a reason that the arbitration policy explicitly provides that Evidence based on private communications (including, but not limited to, other websites, forums, chat rooms, IRC logs, email correspondence) is admissible only by prior consent of the Committee and only in exceptional circumstances. (emphasis added). The "consent of the Committee" is required because the Committee is the body charged with adjudicating disputes involving privacy implications, and it can unjustifiably besmirch someone's reputation to accuse them publicly of misconduct in reliance on evidence that they cannot see and cannot reasonably or fairly respond to.
    I suggest that we close this public case request as out of process. In the event that the Committee opts to take action on BilledMammal's private submissions, it can then fashion the appropriate process, such as a shell case for in camera proceedings with a public final decision, as the committee held in Stephen (see motion), or a hybrid public-private case like the committee held in Reversal and reinstatement of Athaenara’s block (see motion). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 17:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jéské Couriano: My objection is to using this case request to post accusations that would be inappropriate to post anywhere else based only on private evidence. If the Committee finds merit to the submission of off-wiki evidence, it is in the right position to fashion the appropriate process. In my term on the committee I've heard a number of cases involving off-wiki evidence, including both entirely-private proceedings and proceedings with a public component, so that's not the part I'm hung up on. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Decline per Guerillero, with no prejudice against holding a case should the private evidence lead us in that direction. Primefac (talk) 17:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having emailed ArbCom does not create an exception to existing Wikipedia policy (e.g. WP:OUTING). That said, the information we received via email needs to be examined and addressed as appropriate. - Aoidh (talk) 13:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Decline - Whether it's rolled into PIA5 or otherwise handled as appropriate, a standalone case isn't warranted. - Aoidh (talk) 00:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline this publicity stunt to redirect it to the proper channels largely per floq --Guerillero Parlez Moi 22:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that BilledMammal shouldn't have just dumped a pile of private evidence in public. But I also don't see how we get out of dealing with the merits of this issue. I have a number of talking points here. First, BilledMammal and Ivana and co were having a rousing back and forth at the PIA ARCA, which methinks is what led to the posting of this, and indicates that there is indeed an issue here—perhaps a boomerang issue, or at least an issue not entirely focused on off-wiki evidence. Second, that makes me wonder if this wouldn't be better heard as part of what looks will be PIA5. Third, I think us Arbs need to take some blame here. BilledMammal did send us a lot of this several months ago and we just didn't do anything with it. We shouldn't be surprised that he felt like he had to file a public request seeing as we didn't do anything privately. Fourth, I generally agree with SwatJester's points. ArbCom can hear in camera cases. We're the only body that can effectively deal with private evidence. I think a good way to handle such cases can be to have a person file a public request, so as to put the parties on notice, but with something like "private evidence sent to ArbCom" and nothing else. I'm also partial to Thryduulfs suggestion, which is a more anonymous approach. Fifth, if anything, we should probably have a separate discussion at ARCA to workshop how to better take private evidence heavy case requests. Bottom line: we need a better process to take in camera cases, and we also need to do our job and solve the issues here, whether in public or not, whether in PIA5 or by itself. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 09:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @BilledMammal oh gosh, you're right. My bad, I don't know how I misconstrued that. I'll strike myself. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 10:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Selfstudier Perhaps it wasn't convincing. But I think the bigger issue is that the summer was a low point of committee activity (I admit I was part of that problem, I took the summer off arbing to study for the bar exam), and I think it just fell by the wayside as this enormous issue that no one had the energy to dive into. We gave BilledMammal our boilerplate "yeah we got this" and then had no further discussion about it. I agree that the community may not have much to discuss as a result, but that's not the point of a case. While we appreciate community input and the advisory function that uninvolved commenters provide, the peanut gallery is not a strictly necessary aspect of a case request. My concern is how do we make sure that potential parties to the case get a chance to have their say. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This public case request should be declined for now. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:54, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline a public case. If a private case is warranted we will proceed at that time. Z1720 (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral)

Four motions have passed. One allows designation of "appeal only to the Committee" enforcement actions. Two concern word limits, allowing admins to set limits and imposing a topic-wide 1,000 word limit per editor in any given discussion. The final motion will open Palestine-Israel articles 5, which is currently scheduled to begin on November 30. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 04:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Initiated by Red-tailed hawk at 17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Palestine-Israel articles 4 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t) and related AE thread.
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Pursuant to WP:CTOP#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee, a recent Arbitration Enforcement thread has closed with instructions to refer the dispute to the full arbitration committee for final decision.
Lists of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Involved AE participants
Other editors whose behavior was directly mentioned in the AE thread
Referring administrators
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Information about amendment request
  • Throughout the discussion among administrators at AE, several sources of disruption were identified:
  1. Long-term slow-motion edit warring by a number of individuals within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
  2. Long-term tag-team edit warring by several groups of individuals with the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
  3. The widespread nature of edit warring, battleground mentality, and POV pushing within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
  4. The ineffectiveness of previous warnings within the topic area to stop the disruption.
  5. The inability of the tools available at AE to adequately handle disruption that involves a large number of parties over long periods of time.
Several suggestions were floated by administrators during the discussion, including the issuance of warnings to multiple individuals, the imposition of 0RR restrictions on either select individuals, or 0RR restrictions on large numbers of individuals coupled with select IBANs, TBANs, individual anti-bludgeoning restrictions, and topic-wide restrictions on the length of posts people make in discussions within this topic area. However, because the discussion broadly turned into a set of complex and multi-party complaints regarding behavior of multiple editors over long periods of time, a consensus was reached among administrators to refer the broader dispute to the arbitration committee.
— Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Red-tailed hawk (AE referral)

information Note: The arbitration amendment template limits how many individual I can initially add, so I will shortly be adding the rest of the admin and non-admin participants to the list above in their own section.
Additionally, as I can't find any prior examples of referrals by looking through the archive, I have tried to do my best here in light of the fact that this is a referral rather than a standard amendment request/appeal. Arbitrators should not hesitate to let me know if I have formatted this in an unexpected way.
— Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich: As should be more obvious now, it's everyone who contributed to the AE discussion. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich: There's currently a discussion over at WT:Arbitration/Requests#Template for referrals from AE around that topic. For completeness's sake, I included everyone in this one. Going forward, there might be some norm/convention, but I figured that it was better to incorporate everyone rather than potentially leave someone relevant out. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do acknowledge that I left out several individuals whose behavior was directly mentioned, and I will fix that issue now. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zero0000: Please see my comment above, and my exchange with Levivich for an explanation as to why you are listed under the category of "Involved AE participants". — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 11:20, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@L235: Thank you for your comment. I think that a full case/case-like structure would be best, as that is the sort of thing that would allow for clear examination of the complex multi-party disputes that AE is not quite able to handle well. In my view, I don't think the topic-wide "please be brief in discussions" provision will be enough, as it isn't going to remedy the long-term edit warring/tag teaming, nor the civility issues that have driven away good faith editors from the topic area.
In the event that a full case is opened, I agree that it is most appropriate to only have the individuals whose behavior is under examination to be considered as parties. But, before that list is finalized, we might want to have some space for the community to identify that sort of behavior—perhaps the section for statements in this thread? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 19:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that it might be useful for some anti-bludgeoning sanction to incorporated into the discretionary sanctions available for administrators to dole out, but if so, I think it should look like one that the community has previously endorsed in a DS area. One such sanction is that which was imposed on NewImpartial, of no more than two comments per discussion per day, except replies (of reasonable length) to questions or very brief clarifications of their own comments.
I would hesitate to apply a 500 word limit in any discussion under 5000 words, and a 1000 word or 10% of the discussion limit, whichever is lower, on discussions over 5000 words topic-wide in a blanket fashion; I feel like this sort of thing would serve as a trap to good-faith newcomers who are verbose, and we needn't WP:BITE good-faith editors who are entering the topic more than already occurs. That being said, making it available as a discretionary sanction that could be applied by an admin would not cause the same issue with more or less auto-biting good-faith editors new to the area, and might be reasonable. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have read through the analysis by BilledMammal (talk · contribs) regarding the bludgeoning. I would point to WP:ARBBLUDGEON's Editors should avoid repeating the same point or making so many comments that they dominate the discussion as pointing at two things: overly repeating oneself in replies to others, and simply dominating by pure volume. The criteria used for the database search can be seen as a (flawed, but useful) proxy for the latter. The former requires contextual analysis as to whether or not someone is simply posting the same point a bazillion times in response to different people; showing diffs in the same discussion where someone is repeating the same point over and over (and over) again across a multitude of comments would provide better evidence towards that point than the analysis currently does. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 23:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720: With respect to If the closing admin determines that the consensus is an ARCA referral or a case request, it is the closing admin's responsibility to post the request at the appropriate venue, my reading of Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee's relevant part (i.e. A consensus of administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard may refer an arbitration enforcement request to the Arbitration Committee for final decision through a request for amendment; emphasis mine) is that I had to submit it here rather than as a case request. If this is to change going forward, the instructions should probably be tweaked to clarify this. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 23:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do think that a broad enforced WP:BRD topic-wide will eliminate tag-team edit warring that currently occurs to get around WP:1RR. What it will create, however, is worse: it would allow even smaller groups of people to throw up even more friction to making any substantial changes anywhere in the area. Broad WP:BRD across the whole area will exhaust editor time unnecessarily, and it would prove unworkable (particularly so for articles on rapidly developing current events where WP:1RR is already probably too burdensome). — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 23:55, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will note that a thread has closed with the conclusion that I am involved within the context of the Israel-Hamas war (2023-present) due to content edits in that area. Going forward, I will refrain from taking administrative actions in the context of that war except in straightforward cases (e.g. vandalism). — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sir Kenneth Kho: You've written I boldly propose a motion to allow filing SPI reports without evidence of sockpuppetry if there is evidence of disruptive editing in this topic area, this is allowed by CheckUser policy.
I see that the grounds for checking permits the use of CU data to refer to disruption (or potential disruption) of any Wikimedia project and [l]egitimate concerns about bad-faith editing. That may be where you're coming from here.
But those checks need to be substantiated in some way—we would need some reason why checkuser data would help to solve a particular source of disruption or bad-faith editing or otherwise clarify the situation. We can't just have checkusers say "XYZ is a disruptive editor in this area, so let's go fishing". After all, the checkuser policy states both that (1) On the English Wikipedia, checkusers asked to run a check must have clear evidence that a check is appropriate and necessary; (2) unsubstantiated requests will be declined and a check will not be run; and (3) Checks are inappropriate unless there is evidence suggesting abusive sockpuppetry (emphases mine).
Can you explain why you think that the CU policy authorizes the sorts of checks you're advocating for? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Levivich

Pre-motion comments

Looking at the list of parties, those who have been sanctioned in this topic area have not been disruptive since their sanction, AFAIK. Most of the list have never been sanctioned. If there are concerns regarding anyone's behavior in the topic area, a filing at AE, ANI, ANEW, or some other noticeboard, should happen first, before an arbcom case. An arbcom case should only happen when (1) there are editors who want to present evidence to arbcom, and (2) community options have first been tried and failed (unless there's private evidence involved). Because these criteria are not met, the case request should be declined.

Limiting everyone in the topic area to 500-1000 words is a terrible idea. This topic area has more sources (see here or here for an idea of how many academic books have been published just in the last five years), and more sources that contradict each other, than almost any other topic area. Discussions about sources can't happen in 500-1000 words; the very notion is ridiculous. More to the point, any kind of topic-wide restriction would be a horrible, counterproductive overreach. The vast, vast majority of editors are doing nothing wrong.

Removing appeals to the community is not something arbcom can do, as that would require a change to WP:BANPOL, which arbcom cannot do.

I don't think the AEs I filed are particularly "complex" or "multi-party". I think they're straightforward, and each one can be judged on its merits without considering the actions of other parties. Of the 5 I filed, 1 ended in sanctions, 2 in warnings, no problems with those. The PeleYoetz one is still open and they just made their first comment there recently. I don't see any reason admins can't review that as with any other filing. If arbs want to review that filing instead of admins, seems like overkill, but OK. האופה hasn't edited since I filed the AE 8 days ago, so while arbs could review it, I see it as moot, and I don't think reviewing it would be a good use of anyone's time at this point.

There is nothing for arbcom to do here. People who are concerned about disruption in the topic area should raise it at one of the community noticeboards. A sprawling, unfocused case with lots of parties, is a terrible idea, as has been proven multiple times by past arbcoms, and this is especially true in the absence of any showing that the community is unable to handle this. The only thing worse would be a topic-wide sanction; please don't do that, I fear it would trigger a "constitutional crisis" and waste more editor time. Levivich (talk) 14:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a heads up: if a case is opened, I will ask arbcom to name as parties and review the conduct of all the editors, admins and non-admins alike, who, on this page, are casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Those of you who have done so may want to either strike your comments or add some diffs to support your allegations, before arbcom gets around to asking who the parties should be. Levivich (talk) 16:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re: BilledMammal's comment that 26 replies out of 59 by Levivich at Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? were to sock puppets ... The impact of sock puppets on this issue is trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with. 26 replies were to confirmed sock puppets, and I rather strongly disagree that it's trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with, though of course I value my own time more than others value my time. :-P Levivich (talk) 01:47, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The way my report against HaOfa "sprawled" is because the first admin comment made the "other people do it, too" argument and listed a bunch of other editors, and it went downhill from there, as those editors predictably defended themselves and the discussion focused on their conduct rather than HaOfa's (despite my attempts to refocus it). I agree with TBF that an AE referral means Arbcom should review my report against HaOfa -- meaning, look at my conduct and HaOfa's conduct -- and complaints about other editors should be brought separately, with diffs not aspersions, and a showing that some other conduct dispute resolution was first tried. Because even if Arbcom does open a case, who will the parties be, and how will Arbcom decide? It requires someone presenting some evidence... in other words, an WP:ARC. Only HaOfa and I are relevant to this AE, and with HaOfa not editing since the filing, I don't think it's necessary or a good use of Arbcom's time to look at HaOfa's conduct. Levivich (talk) 01:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49: If no one else other than Levivich had replied, some quorum of admin would have been able to reach consensus on האופה. The fact that the replies that actually happened split the focus in a way that AE is ill-equipped to handle is why I ultimately (if reluctantly) agreed we should refer the case here. I think the "first admin comment" link above disproves this. Look at who replied and who didn't before that first comment was made. It wasn't the replies that actually happened split the focus, it was the first admin comment. Levivich (talk) 17:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does "pro-Israeli" mean pro-Netanyahu, or pro-the hundreds of thousands of Israelis marching in the streets protesting Netanyahu? Does "pro-Palestinian" mean pro-Fatah or pro-Hamas? And if the truth makes one side look good and the other look bad, does that mean it's "pro-" one side and "anti-" the other, or is it just the truth?

Somebody tries to get Wikipedia to say that East Jerusalem is part of Israel. That's called pro-Israeli POV-pushing. The pro-Palestinian version of that would be somebody trying to get Wikipedia to say that West Jerusalem is part of Palestine. Maybe it's happened, but I've never seen anybody try that. AFAIK, there is nobody "on the other side" of the pro-Israeli POV-pushing with regards to the status of Jerusalem. There are just the people who say it's all Israel, and the people who say, no it's split in two parts and it's supposed to be an international zone. That second group isn't "pro-Palestinian," just pro-truth.

Somebody tries to get Wikipedia to say that Palestinians are not indigenous or native to Palestine. Pro-Israeli POV-pushing. The pro-Palestinian version of that would be somebody trying to get Wikipedia to say that Jews are not indigenous or native to Israel (or Palestine, call it what you will). I've seen that, but rarely. Much more common are people saying that both groups are native to the region. Those people aren't pro-Palestinian POV-pushers, they're just pro-truth; they're normal editors following the sources.

There have been some names named on this page. I remember them participating in disputes about East Jerusalem and Palestinian origins, but I don't remember them ever trying to change an article to say that West Jerusalem was Palestinian, or Jews aren't from Israel. And I don't see any diffs of that.

So the disruption on Wikipedia is not pro-Israeli vs. pro-Palestinian; it's not that kind of simple. But it is editors who follow RS vs. a bunch of socks; it's that kind of simple. Yes, there are also good-faith content disputes, as to be expected, but the disruption--the edit warring, the source misrepresentation, the POV-pushing--that's largely from socks. And the response to those socks is not POV-pushing from the other side. Following RS is not POV pushing.

The damage caused by these socks can be significant. The latest example of obvious-sock-but-we-can't-say-it-until-we-have-a-certain-amount-of-minimum-evidence is FourPi. Look at their last 1000 contribs; they go back two weeks. Look at how much of other editor's time they wasted on talk pages. Just their last 1000 mainspace edits go back one month. Who has time to check all of those?

So when you see some people argue that East Jerusalem is in Israel and Palestinians aren't from there, and another group saying that's not true, please don't label them "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian." The most efficient way to handle it is to look at the RS, figure out which side is following the RS, and then checkuser the other side. Levivich (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Like others, I appreciate the attempt to move this to conclusion with some motions, but I disagree with all of SFR's suggestions:

  1. Appeals only to arbcom - I don't see any evidence that appeals are a significant source of disruption in this topic area. Where are the links to 5-10 recent disruptive appeals? So I don't see any reason to change anything about appeals.
  2. Word limits - Bludgeoning can't be determined by word count or comment count, those are indicators but not determinitive; any determination requires case-by-case analysis. Also, it's a fallacy to think that long discussions are always a problem. We can't decide whether to call it "Gaza genocide" in a brief discussion. We can't analyze the number of RSes in Template:Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate in under 500 words per person. Limiting talk page discussions to 500 words would be very counterproductive to building an encyclopedia, in any topic area, because it would prevent people from discussing anything in any serious depth. Many of us can't even comment on this month-long ARCA in under 500 words; how would we ever decide "Gaza genocide" in under 500 words each?
  3. Excluding "involved" participants - "Editors designated "involved" in the area of conflict" would be everyone who edits in ARBPIA. I'm not sure of the thinking behind putting restrictions on everybody who edits ARBPIA. There certainly isn't any evidence that everybody who edits ARBPIA is editing disruptively or that excluding their voices would somehow benefit the topic area. Also, experience editing a topic area is not a bad thing. I'm having a hard time seeing the logic in replacing experienced editors with inexperienced editors and expecting that to lead to improvement.
  4. Enforced BRD - This is already something that can be imposed on talk pages, yet in my experience it has almost never been imposed on any talk page in ARBPIA (I can't think of a single example). We have one page that is under Consensus Required (Zionism). I don't know whether Enforced BRD or Consensus Required is better, or if either are improvements over neither, but we do not have enough data to know. Let admins apply them to pages first, and see how they work out, before we consider applying either of them to the entire topic area.

This has been open for almost a month, and yet nobody has yet posted a specific list of parties, and recent diffs of disruption by those parties, and links to prior discussions of that disruption that did not resolve it. I think instead of motions, it'd be better for arbcom to close this ARCA without any specific action now but with an invitation for editors to request arbcom's review by presenting specific evidence (at ARCA or ARC) of recent disruption that hasn't been addressed by the community. Levivich (talk) 20:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Meanwhile... here's some actual disruption in the topic area, going on right now: revert, revert, revert, revert, revert, all by accounts new to the topic area, at the same time as high-profile off-wiki commentary, e.g. X post by Brianna Wu, X post by Hen Mazzig. This is an example of why "outside voices" aren't necessarily better than the voices of experienced editors. Levivich (talk) 20:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Figureofnine's comment that there is widespread belief, both on and off-wiki, that these articles are biased may be true, but there is not widespread agreement on which way that bias runs. This widespread belief is not a problem that can be fixed, or that we can even try to fix. There will always be widespread belief that Wikipedia articles are biased, just like there is widespread belief that the rest of the media is biased, because it's true, because all people are biased to various degrees, it's inescapable. WP:NPOV has "neutral" in the title, but it redefines the word to mean something unique on Wikipedia. NPOV doesn't mean free of bias, it means we adopt mainstream bias. We say in wikivoice what the mainstream says, we identify dissenting views that the mainstream deems significant, and ignore the others (calling them "fringe"). We call this adoption of the mainstream bias "neutral point of view." Everyone will always disagree with some parts of it, but it'll be different parts. Sure, I also think our ARBPIA articles are riddled with bias, but not the same parts that Hen Mazzig is talking about, and Arbcom isn't going to resolve that disagreement between us. We are not here because of bias in articles, and I don't think there is any chance that we are going to stick NPOV tags on thousands of articles, nor are we going to elect a body that can come up with a way to write a bias-free summary of the most complicated and controversial geopolitical dispute in history. Let's keep our expectations reasonable: we can kick people out who are causing a lot of trouble, and maybe find ways to reduce the amount of volunteer time wasted on unnecessary writing (cough), that's what we can try to do. Levivich (talk) 05:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Coretheapple's statement that the Wikipedia community as a whole has avoided this subject area is easily dispelled. Israel–Hamas war (created less than a year ago) has been edited by 1,288 editors and has 787 page watchers. For a comparison, Israel (created in 2001) has 5,686 editors and 2,928 watchers. 2024 Lebanon pager explosions (created one week ago) has 250 editors and 171 watchers. Those hundreds of editors are part of the Wikipedia community (as am I, as are the editors I work with every day). They have not avoided this subject area. Levivich (talk) 16:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More useful motions would be:
  • Something to address the socking -- though I don't know what (ECR hasn't posed a problem for the topic area's dedicated LTAs)
  • A source restriction like WP:APLRS, but with a carve out for current events. In recent days at Talk:Zionism, we've had editors try to cite the Bible, Wikipedia, and dictionaries, as RS. This is a too-common occurrence. Levivich (talk) 16:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CaptainEek: Maybe "carve out" is the wrong word. The current wording of WP:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Reliable source consensus-required restriction (shortcut needed), includes reputable institution, and arguably something like NYT, BBC, or AP would qualify. But I think some distinction needs to be made between using news media for current events (good), and using news media for history (bad, especially because ample scholarly sources are available for history). Even that breaks down into two further categories: using current news media for history (I still think bad, because scholarship is available), and using historical news media for history -- like citing to a 1948 New York Times article that says the Arabs "fled" instead of "were expelled", which is something I've seen a number of times in this topic area, and which should be totally avoided. I would phrase it like: stick to scholarship, except for current events, then use mainstream media. Maybe "clarification" is a better word for that than "carve out"? In terms of defining "recent," I think one year minimum or two years maximum ... the purpose being that once scholarship exists, ditch the news media in favor of the scholarship. It's taken about 6 months, I'd say, for a decently-sized body of scholarship to develop about the 2023 war. A year later, we now have a good number of journal articles, and some books are starting to be published. By this time next year, there will be no need to use news media for events in 2023, as we'll have books and journal articles to draw from. This is my anecdotal and totally unscientific and unqualified opinion, of course :-) But bottom line: OK to use NYT for events in the past year or so; don't use NYT's "I-P conflict explainer," instead use scholarship for that; don't use 50- or 100-year old newspapers for anything. Levivich (talk) 16:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Eek: I think my concern about current events could be addressed with a sentence added to the RS restriction that said something along the lines of, "Reputable news media may be used as a source for current events that have not yet been significantly covered by scholarship." That's what I meant by "carve out." I think this sentence would apply to APL and ARBPIA and any other topic areas where the RS restriction was in effect. Levivich (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoidh: What is the inclusion criteria for the list of parties in your motion? Going through the list:

  • BilledMammal: One-week pblock, logged by SFR, on 8 May. No other logged sanctions or warnings, ever. (Apparently BM was never given a logged warning before being sanctioned.)
  • Iskandar323: Last sanctioned in 2021
  • Levivich: Warning logged by SFR 7 Oct; before that, last ARBPIA sanction (pblock) was in 2020
  • Nableezy: TBAN in 2023 imposed by SFR, overturned on appeal (reduced to 30 days by agreement); last ARBPIA sanction (logged warning) was in 2021
  • PeleYoetz: Never sanctioned, one AE filing, which was referred to arbcom (this ARCA)
  • Selfstudier: Warning logged by SFR 7 Oct; before that, last ARBPIA sanction (logged warning) was in 2020
  • האופה: Never sanctioned, one AE filing, which was referred to arbcom (this ARCA)

This does not seem to be a group of editors who are causing long-term problems. So why list us?

Second question: what's wrong with making people who want to have a case file a WP:RFAR, with diffs and links showing long-term disruption and a failure by the community to handle it? Why is that not the answer here? Levivich (talk) 17:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoidh: I appreciate your very quick and direct response, but I'm afraid I don't understand interaction between a group of editors was deemed too complex for AE to properly address. What interactions between this group of editors are you referring to? And when was it "deemed too complex," and by whom? I'm asking you: exactly what did I and the others do to make you think that you should start a case about us? And how could it be "too complex" if there are almost no sanctions and almost no AE cases, about anyone on this list (none at all for most people on this list)? What is the basis of your conclusion that this particular group of editors have had interactions that have been deemed too complex for AE to handle? Levivich (talk) 17:56, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to drill down on one example: Iskandar323. What are they doing on this list? They haven't been sanctioned since 2021 and AFAIK never brought to AE in that time period, either (not counting the obviously meritless filings brought by CU-blocked accounts). So what basis is there to say that interactions involving Iskandar323 are too complex for AE to properly address? I could similarly go one by one down this list, including myself. But let's just talk about the lowest-hanging fruit, which is Iskandar: why are they on this list? Levivich (talk) 17:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by האופה

Wow, a very long discussion.

I haven't been here for a while due to personal matters unrelated to Wikipedia. My family has been affected both financially and physically by the war in Israel, and I had to take the time to assist them.

Yesterday, I returned and saw the lengthy discussion... it took me time to read everything, and I admit I wasn't able to deeply analyze every single word written.

I want to thank Selfstudier, who closely follows my edits and brought this discussion to my attention.

As for the matter at hand: I have never engaged in canvassing or tag-teaming. I simply agree with other editors who claim that the situation in many articles related to Israel has already crossed all boundaries of NPOV and is heavily biased. I participate in talk pages and have made reverts in cases where problematic content was promoted despite not reaching a consensus. Unfortunately, after all the edit wars, the problematic content remains in these articles, damaging our credibility.HaOfa (talk) 07:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bluethricecreamman

  • There seems to be constant RFCs and threads about the reliability of sourcing in this area. I know the current arbitration request is about long term edit warring, but there is also long-term campaigns in talk spaces to remove usage of certain sourcing. See the downgrading of the ADL, the current RFC in WP:RSN about Al Jazeera, etc. The downgrading of the ADL, in particular, caused significant media coverage for barely much difference in the status quo of average Wikipedian (from my understanding, we already had significant warnings about using ADL with attribution only when speaking about Israel Palestine, the change in status quo hardly meant much more than a media circus). Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In terms of reversion, the reversion limits are harder to understand in CTOP space, especially for more contentious arguments. A clarification of what the "base" article text is and what the contentious edit that is being reverted is would be useful. In my case on Genocide of indigenous peoples, there are still questions of how to apply WP:NOCONSENSUS vs WP:ONUS when a contentious edit (which probably should be removed by WP:ONUS) had been placed in text for long while (and therefore should remain by WP:NOCONSENSUS). Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional clarification on whether coordinated tag-team editwarring (i.e. WP:CANVASSED) or incidental tag-team editwarring should be treated similarly would be useful Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Going off of the suggestion from ScottishFR, for the limit of 500-1000 words, some of these RFC discussions go long. Instead of absolute limits that could unfairly limit discussion among the most passionate editors of the topic, would it be possible to go with proportional limits (no more than 500 words or 10% of comments, whichever is greater?), or limits per week (500 words per week?) In addition, I have questions if such a limit would apply to single RFC threads, or to the whole topic at once. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think categorizing and various ontologies is also problematic and hard to determine, as is expected. See the issue with whether Israel is just accused of being an apartheid state, or also a Talk:Herrenvolk_democracy#Inclusion_of_Israel_in_imagebox. Allegations of just genocide or Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples. There are POV-fork type issues, but this is one of those topics where every time there is a question of how to categorize the conflict, it opens up the same exact battle lines of arguments in a million pages, even if they cover completely different aspects that may involve Israel/Palestine as one example. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    TLDR; battleground fractures into dozens of talk pages that aren't necessarily pov-forks, same arguments pushed everywhere in each RFC. Better guidelines on how to be more succinct with RFCs on this topic, and how to discuss WP:ARBPIA topics on pages that aren't necessarily centered on ARBPIA would be wonderful too. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:13, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding Number57's assessment, A further issue is that for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions (and in my view the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage). this seems disingenuous to suggest this, especially given the WP:NOTAVOTE rule. There are RFCs where arguments on either side are heavily favored by numbers before an admin/uninvolved closer throws away votes that have reasoning that is logically rebutted. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I will also say the 30/500 restriction as a "worsening" of situation seems silly. I am not quite sure about the logical reasoning behind that assertion, though some other biased publications have attempted to use that to suggest that wikipedia "censors" certain viewpoints? [13][14][15] Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It sounds like a few of folks are leaning towards massive topic bans against all participants... Regardless of how unlikely such a proposal is, I hate the idea of "cleaning the slate" and such a broad strokes approach is likely to cause more problems than it would theoretically solve:
    * There is benefits to having folks with bias on here, especially the most heaviest editors, doing major work. Bias is inherent to humanity and pretending otherwise is just an excuse to press the red ban button without considering consequences (or especially because they hate the current bias of Wikipedia compared to their preferred bias). The way to deal with bias is using the principles we have, rules we can apply even handedly, WP:WIKIVOICE to correctly attribute which side says what, etc.
    • Many topic areas have specialized folks who do important work (see Pareto rule). Seeing a list of highly motivated folks in this topic area is not a sign necessarily they are always hogging the attention, so much as they provide much of the energy to keep Wikipedia up to doate.
    • The precedent of massive topic bans without careful assessment of the reasoning why leads to dangerous precedents for other future content disputes.
    • The precedent of retroactive punishments for areas of conflict is a dangerous precedent
    • I am not sure the same cabal of pro-Palestine/pro-Israeli editors is necessarily "crowding" out other editors? There are folks who loudly complain about exiting ARBPIA areas, especially on this section, but that isn't quite the same as actual stats to back that up. I'm actually fairly new-ish to this topic area, and admins have been kind enough to help shepherd, provide useful guidance, and prevent my early exit (voluntary or involuntary).
  • I think pressing a mass TBAN on this topic area would be somewhat equivalent to doing WP:TNT on large sections of the editor community who specialize on here... Unless it is certain that all of the project is absolutely unsalvageable or ARBIPA is somehow all a failure, I ask arbitrators to avoid granting such a power. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sean.hoyland thanks for the numbers, they are really informative! I will say, it is fairly obvious a giant influx of editors to the topic area happened recently as a result of the conflict (myself included), though obviously the analysis of such a large dataset to confirm or deny toxicity by a core group would go beyond just numbers. I think the pure mass of folks in the topic area is just a lot harder to govern around and regulate, especially with the contentiousness of the topic area. And as the conflict spreads beyond obviously ARBPIA pages to tangentially related pages, the regulations get murkier. I think if PIA5 does happen, a key issue is just how to govern and regulate en masse, as well as on the individual editor/cabal level, and how to handle PIA content on pages that aren't just pure PIA (see the Herrenvolk_democracy talk page RFC for an example)? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on Motion 3. All areas of Wikipedia has "regulars" and regulars generally provide the most institutional wisdom to the project, rejection of "regulars" ability to vote would likely represent a repudiation of the current coverage of the conflict in favor of the implicit view by some that "secret majorities" have overrun the CTOP areas. For Motion 4, what would be defined as recent? editwars may take the form of months long warring, in which case which edit is a revert, and which is disputed becomes contested as well Bluethricecreamman (talk)
    * regarding the "secret majority" theory proposed by some, I argue that folks use the idea that CTOP contentiousness is driven by a small group of editors to pursue a "burn the house down" strategy of removing/wounding an editor population they perceive to be ideologically biased in one direction. Sean.Hoyland has already produced statistics indicating that editor counts are diverse and that the area is contentious primarily because the topic is contentious. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Chess - This steady drip drop of circumstantial evidence and constantly mentioning and pinging Ivana with the same evidence over and over instead of putting all the info down just once just keeps the temperature simmering. Let Arbcom decide the evidence if they decide to do the case, but don't keep reminding us every few days. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ABHammad

I think we have arrived at a point where editing in this area is not just a battleground environment but an ex-territory of the project. I recognize that I, too, took part in this in the past, not out of desire but because I felt I had no choice when I saw the consistent POV pushing and disregard for policies and consensus. There’s probably a reason why Wikipedia is now maybe the only mainstream source to use terms such as Gaza genocide and Israeli apartheid (read the lead) with its own voice. Many disputed changes like this have been introduced through edit warring (check Zionism, now defined as looking for the “colonization of land outside Europe”), in spite of substantial opposition. The current situation both scares away potential great editors and destroys our credibility and neutrality.

The feeling is that a bunch of 5-10 experienced editors have taken dominance over the area. Much of their edit histories show a focus on promoting one side's POV and discarding the other. Although some problematic editing occurs on both sides, it should be noted that the extent of POV editing on articles about one side is only a fraction of what occurs on articles about the other. This situation is perpetuated as new good-faith editors trying to balance the content often face aggressive behavior such as strong CTOP messages from Selfstudier followed by inquiries how did they find this and that article, "previous accounts" questions from Nableezy, accusations of "gaming the system to achieve EC status" from Iskandar323 on noticeboards, and as we seen in the last month, unverified tag-teaming allegations from Levivich. Those who survive all of the above then find their user talk pages filled with allegations, insults and other kinds of personal attacks and aspersions. Even five edits in this topic area can provoke such reactions. WP:ONUS and WP:CONSENSUS are ignored - they are applied only to others. RfCs, AfDs, and RMs are manipulated through mass bludgeoning. They blame others for edit warring - but this is exactly what they are doing. Based on my experience with these editors over several months, I am afraid it would be naive to think that simply limiting word count in discussions would solve the problem. Looking over their logs, many of these editors already have a long history of warnings and short-term topic bans, so something else must be done this time. ABHammad (talk) 09:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Much of what I was discussing is unfolding as we speak. Take a look at this discussion in an article recently created by an EC editor who appears to be an expert in security studies. Iskandar323 opens a technical move without any prior discussion [16], Selfstudier casts aspersions on other editors who joined the discussion and disagreed with them [17], Nableezy asks the opening editor on their page if it's their first account [18], and Sean Hoyland accused the creator of being a sock [19], just two days after blaming another editor for being a sock solely based on some shared topics of interest with a blocked editor who had 72,000(!) edits [20]. I can only guess how this editor feels right now and how long they will stay with us. ABHammad (talk) 08:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As conduct issues are still pending resolution, the battleground mentality and disruptive behavior does not stop. Involved parties such as Nableezy, Sean.Hoyland and Levivich continue to (falsely [21]) accuse editors of opposing of other point-of-views with accusations of tag-teaming and sockpuppetry. Unsurprisingly, one main argument centers around differing points of view [22], continuing the line of targeting editors with different point of views to theirs.
Meanwhile, we have another experienced editor changing the first line of Hezbollah's article to describe it as a resistance group [23], while advocating to remove the group's terrorist designation, a consensus in Western nations, from the first paragraph [24]. The same editor has also used Samidoun, labeled a terrorist organization by the United States, Canada, Germany and the Netherlands for supporting the October 7 attacks, to claim Samir Kuntar’s innocence in the lead of his article. [25] When I pointed out that Samidoun is an unreliable source, Nableezy responded with, Oh ffs, that a government says some group is a terrorist organization has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is a reliable source for some statement. The IDF is a proscribed terrorist organization in Iran, should we not cite it for anything? [26]. Nableezy also says that It’s just Israel that claims some connection to the PFLP[27] and calls them "a registered charity in Canada", [28] but the USDT says Samidoun is "a sham charity that serves as an international fundraiser for the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)."[29] Troubling? indeed.
The intimidation of new editors persists, bad faith accusations continue, and skewed content continues to be disseminated (in that case — based on a terrorist organization). ABHammad (talk) 13:36, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Recent remarks framing sockpuppetry as our biggest problem are just empty rhetoric. Even if those accused were actually guilty—though I personally believe blocking them was a mistake, as their behavior appears quite distinct, with different topics, writing styles, times, languages, learning curves, and so on—it's a minor issue. The newer editors joining in recent years hold no real influence over what's actually happening in ARBPIA. This issue doesn't compare to fifteen years of the topic's 'regulars' engaging in edit wars, intimidating new editors, and relying on extremist sources, some linked to authoritarian regimes or terrorist organizations, all leading to a large-scale bias, making fringe ideas seem mainstream, and massively distorting our content on multiple topics. ABHammad (talk) 15:31, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

1.There is another relevant recent related AE thread, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive336#Nishidani. Many of the editors here, including myself and several of the uninvolved administrators, were participants and the case revolved around behavior (and content) at the Zionism article and this same subject matter is a part of the current case, 6 Levivich diffs refer (in the last two statements).Selfstudier (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2.This one as well (PeleYoetz). Editors named here continue to respond there. Although procedurally a separate AE case, it was filed contemporaneously with and is part and parcel of the related AE thread. Selfstudier (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3.In the interim, avoiding this sort of thing or this would be as well. Selfstudier (talk) 22:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4.Several editors suggest that editors are scared off by a toxic environment. this example for the Zionism article (Sean.hoyland), shows the contrary, an influx of new editors in recent times. Difficult to be certain without more data but my sense is that the pattern will hold up for other articles as well. It is of course possible that both things are true. Selfstudier (talk) 09:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Theleekycauldron: it'd be ludicrous to say that the temperature in this area is lower than it was the day before the war began. I'm not saying that, I'm saying that there has been an influx of new editors regardless of the temperature.Selfstudier (talk) 10:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

5.@Nishidani: Where is the empirical evidence for these outrageous spluttering caricatures of a very complex environment +1, I would indeed like to see the data. Selfstudier (talk) 10:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

6: Apart from myself, and given the number of times they are mentioned, I think we should specify just which editors are the regulars. Just so we know. Selfstudier (talk) 17:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

7: @Barkeep49: The difficulty is that following "referral", based on a case that was not even resolved, 4 editors were designated for investigation with no apparent basis or other case specified as reasons for such an investigation. If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now, suggesting that the only basis for said designation is the content of the replies (of editors and admins) in said case, which lacks a certain logic afaics. Which is not to say definitively that there should not be a case, just that it should have proper antecedents and not merely come about ad hoc.Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

8: Re BM's "evidence", the same case Nableezy refers to, BM characterizes my position as not expressing a stance on the use of the term massacre when I !voted against it! -> Oppose Incident is a euphemistic whitewash for what occurred. Would support 2008 killings in Bureij or similar Selfstudier (talk) 12:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then the next two on the list are RM's that I proposed and the result accorded with what I proposed. I will waste no more time with this, if anyone would like to accuse me of POV pushing based on such evidence, feel free to do so. Selfstudier (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

9: If someone insists, rather simplistically imo, on labeling myself, then a more appropriate label from my own perspective would be pro human rights/International law and the alleged pro-Palestinianism derives from my belief that the hr/il rights of Palestinians are breached far more frequently than those of Israelis, in particular Jewish Israelis. And guess what, I can source that, with ease. Selfstudier (talk) 16:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

10: Enforced BRD or WP:CRP is useful and one such is currently operating to good effect at Zionism; for bludgeoning, I would suggest instead a rule that direct replies to !votes be disallowed, indirect replies and responses only in own sections as at AE. As for exclusion from !voting, I would go along with this provided that every editor that had made even one edit to an AI/IP article was similarly excluded (I assume that such excluded editors would still be permitted to open formal discussions? eg opening an RM is usually considered equivalent to a bolded !vote.) Selfstudier (talk) 14:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

11: Motion 5 might well be the case that should have been brought in the first place, now the party list appears limited, one might in addition hope that, ah, "behavior wrt content" might also be subject of examination. Selfstudier (talk) 09:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

12: The reason why Iskandar made the list is apparent on reading the referred AE case. Whether that constitutes a good reason for them being in the list is a different matter. Selfstudier (talk) 18:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

13: @Aoidh: An ARCA ARC then, that might work. Just to clarify, the initial evidence is to revolve around interactions between certain editors, I am still unclear how that list of editors was determined? Were some editors involved in the 2 AE cases excluded on some basis? Can admins be parties? It seems at first blush, that SFR qualifies as a party. Selfstudier (talk) 14:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

14: @Tryptofish: after fully reviewing evidence, will remove some experienced editors from certain kinds of discussions, that will lead to improvements in the editing environment (and in AE's ability to handle complaints) Prejudging much? Selfstudier (talk) 20:16, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

15: If this is going ahead, any reason why the new Nableezy et al cases can't be rolled up in here (same referring admins more or less, same protagonists, same sort of issues)? Selfstudier (talk) 15:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by fiveby

I don't think the referral of this particular case and the inclusion of the first two items listed as identified disruption dealing with edit warring necessarily means that AE can't deal with such or didn't in this instance. Just because the experiment blew up the lab does not mean it was a bad thing to try. Seemed like a reasonable request and a result of you need more evidence to demonstrate tag team editing seems reasonable, which everyone could have and maybe should have accepted and walked away from. fiveby(zero) 17:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HJ Mitchell, these knowledgeable Wikipedians, who exactly are they? If you are thinking of those often claiming some greater knowledge or ability in this topic area, then oh boy do you have it wrong. Here is some "source misrepresentation", blatant and obvious. If members of the committee can't see it happening now and do something about it then they are the last people who should feel qualified to perform some kind of grand "source analysis" for the topic area. fiveby(zero) 21:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich, WP:BESTSOURCES. In general i've seen a greater commitment to source quality in this topic area than elsewhere (tho might strongly object to some readings of the sources). Are you suggesting a rule that will only constrain the reasonable editors, but one which the unreasonable are incapable or unwilling to comply with? For instance i would not be surprised to see a citation to the Hebrew Bible in the Zionism article, and i would expect (depending on how detailed the content) citations to contemporary reporting of "fled" in that section for Haifa discussed the other day. Of course the citations would be aids to the reader and not sources to build content from. The only time i've seen something along the lines of that "Reliable source consensus-required restriction"'s article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution applied it was causing more problems than it was worth. fiveby(zero) 21:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS

Two suggestions to improve the topic area:

1) Make edit summaries mandatory and require them to be accurate.
2) Change extended confirmed account requirements from "account has existed for at least 30 days" to ~"account has edited on at least 30 different days"

-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

I tend to agree with Ravpapa's assessment that we have probably "exceeded the limits of the possible with a cooperative open editing model, and we need to think of some other way to approach articles in this area". I have no idea what that would look like.

I would like to know the answer to the following question

  • Why would a person on a righteous mission hand over control of which rules they have to follow to people hostile to their cause when they can simply use disposable accounts and pick and choose which rules to follow without having to concern themselves with the consequences of non-compliance?

Answers like "It's against the rules", "It's dishonest", "It's hypocritical", "They will be discovered and blocked" are wrong answers. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding a perceived "established/multi-topic interested Wikipedian" vs "less-established more and/or more singularly focused Wikipedian" divide, I'm not sure this tells you anything very useful. There is already training material teaching people how to resemble a multi-topic interested Wikipedian. This is good advice because there is utility in diluting POV edits, edit war participation etc. A few strategic edit warring edits in a sea of multi-topic edits will likely be treated differently than a few strategic edit warring edits by an account that resembles an SPA, even though they are the same. It may also devalue article intersection evidence between accounts and reduce the chance of a checkuser being approved. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A plea for humility

This is for all the people making sweeping statements.

  • It might be better to assign low credence, by default, to the accuracy of assessments of the state of the 'topic area', a complex system with thousands of moving parts.
  • This is a small part of the structure you are talking about. What is the likelihood that sweeping statements are accurate?
  • Here are some numbers and some questions.
    • I don't know what the 'topic area' is exactly, but thousands of article talk pages have one of the various topic area related templates informing people about the special rules. So, we can look at those and pretend it's the 'topic area' or thereabouts.
    • This table lists the number of different editors and the number of revisions for talk pages in this 'topic area' for the last ten years or so. The number of revisions provides an upper limit on the number of editor interactions on talk pages. Obviously, the actual number of interactions will be much less, but at least there are some numbers rather than stories and feelings.
    • Questions:
      • How many of these talk page interactions are consistent with the sweeping negative assessments of the state of the topic area and how many are not?
      • How many comply with policy and guidelines and how many do not?
      • How many are hostile, toxic, combative, tendentiousness, condescending, bludgeoning, hypocritical, bullying, glaringly dishonest etc. and how many are not?
year actor_count talk_revisions
0 2013 2096 17754
1 2014 2483 23773
2 2015 2167 23195
3 2016 1848 18541
4 2017 2091 21463
5 2018 2184 23643
6 2019 1907 15812
7 2020 2110 14908
8 2021 2755 21711
9 2022 2464 19716
10 2023 6778 52636
11 2024 6287 59678

Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Being realistic/know your limits

It's quite difficult to reconcile calls to topic ban long term experienced users with things we know about the topic area. We know quite a lot. For example, we know the following things.

  • It isn't possible to topic ban or block a person and prevent them from editing in the topic area. Why? Because it isn't possible to enforce the WP:SOCK policy in PIA. It's largely unenforceable for a variety of practical, wiki-cultural and technical reasons. We all know this. There have always been plenty of accounts evading topic bans and blocks in PIA and there is apparently very little that can be done about it. They are part of the community of editors in PIA, like it or not.
  • Topic bans don't solve problems. They split the PIA community into 2 classes, editors who comply with WP:SOCK and editors who do not and therefore cannot be sanctioned effectively. Maybe a currently topic banned user in this discussion could talk openly about this reality. Their input could be very valuable.
  • If every editor currently active in the topic area were topic banned today, the topic area would be rapidly recolonized, probably within a matter of days or weeks. The pioneers would be more likely to come from subpopulations that do not think the prohibition against "systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view" applies to them. We know this because we have lots of data about how new highly motivated biased editors cross (or tunnel through) the EC barrier and what they do when they get into the topic area.

Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Kip, regarding socks,

  • Unfortunately, I think the statement "it's a problem that can be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI" (my bolding) is just not true. That's what the data shows, and we have a lot of data, at least for people who advocate for Israel, less so for people who advocate for Palestine (although they are also present). If you ask questions like...
  • "How many sock accounts are currently active in the topic area, or outside the area (to gain EC or access to wiki-mail for canvassing)"
  • "How has the number of sock accounts varied over time?"
  • "How many revisions to articles, talk pages, RfCs, RSN etc. are by sock accounts?"

...what are the answers? Nobody knows, but we know from the data that they are a constant presence, make thousands of edits, participate in many discussions and have a significant impact on the dynamics of the topic area (including the things often referred to as 'heat' and 'temperature' - slightly misleading terms because those are measurable quantities in the real world that are unreliable subjective guesses here).

I think there's a bit of a failure to factor in the significance of socks. The existence of an effectively unsanctionable class changes many things in important ways (this is true in other systems too). There are asymmetries in the payoffs and penalties for socks vs non-socks in the wiki-game. There are asymmetries in the costs of preparing and processing an SPI report vs creating a disposable account, which is a virtually frictionless process. These asymmetries, and there are many, seem to be very significant features of the topic area. Using disposable accounts appears to be a better strategy for the righteous advocate and it's not obvious how to change that.

Certainly, it's a problem that could be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI, but that would probably require significant changes to current norms about checkuser usage and evidence. What I would like to see, just out of interest, are experiments e.g. split the topic area up into article subsets, have different rule sets for the subsets, see what happens. Have a closely guarded set of articles with all of the existing rules, any new remedies, any new entry barriers, checkusers for every editor active there etc., the strictest possible enforcement environment. Have another set that could be a land for the oppressed and mistreated ban evading victims of WP:SOCK, for the disposable account fan, for people to edit war and advocate to their hearts content and stick a disclaimer on the articles for readers. Things like that would be interesting and possibly informative.

Are statements of the form "it's toxic disaster zone" true statements or just stories? It's not what I observe. It seems to have improved in some ways. What I have observed over time is what seems to be a gradual transition from things like edit warring as a solution, to talking and the use of tools like RFCs etc. But the topic area is so large and complex with so many individual actors, and so many events, that it is difficult to make reliable general statements about it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Meme check #1 TLDR -> some data.

How true are statements about editors being scared away from the topic area by a toxic environment created by entrenched editors etc.?

It's true that there are instances that can be selected out of the large number of comments on talk pages and elsewhere to tell this story. Sometimes they will be sincere statements and other times they will be insincere manipulative statements by ban evading socks playing the victim in the hopes of getting perceived opponents blocked.

One way to see whether editors being scared away could be to

  • Look for changes in the number of unique editors in the topic area over time
  • Compare the topic area to the rest of Wikipedia

If the claim is true, you might expect to see a couple of things

  • The number of unique editors reducing over time
  • A proportionally lower number of unique editors in the topic area than in Wikipedia in general.

I've tried to have a look at this using 3 datasets, two approximations of the 'topic area' and a set of randomly selected Wikipedia articles.

  • PIA topic area - template presence (3734 articles). Articles with one of the ARBPIA/contentious topics templates on their talk pages.
  • PIA topic area - project membership (3019 articles). Articles that are members of both Wikiproject Israel and Palestine. This is the approach BilledMammal uses, so thanks for that. Neither of these methods capture every article that a person would say is in the topic area, they are both different subsets of a larger set, but it's a start.
  • Random sample (15000 articles).

Here are the results.

  • The top plot shows the unique editor count over time for the 3 datasets.
  • The bottom plot shows the same results scaled by article count. This result might suggest that the topic area is more attractive to editors than Wikipedia in general. Didn't really expect that.

Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zero0000, removing topic area articles created from Oct 7, 2023 onwards doesn't seem to make much difference. I guess many editors might be flowing upstream from the new post-Oct 7 extensions to the topic area to update pre-Oct 7 articles. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Meme check #2 TLDR -> more data

Many opinions about the topic area talk of a set of editors ('experienced editors', 'the regulars', 'battleground editors', 'the culprits', 'entrenched editors' etc.) who have worked together to some effect.

Can we see this effect?

  • One place to look might be in the relationship between account age and revisions to see who's doing the editing.
  • Is it mostly these older accounts, or newer accounts, or something more complicated?
  • Is some kind of evidence of article ownership visible?

I've tried to look at this by...

  • Selecting 35 fairly prominent articles
  • Producing histograms showing the number of revisions vs account age in days at the time the edit was made for each article and talk page.
    • To keep things visually simple the bin size for account age is 365 days.
    • 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles are marked along with the average account age.

Here are the results. The distributions vary but younger accounts appear to dominate in the topic area in terms of revision counts, at least based on this small sample. It would be interesting to see what this distribution looks like for the entire topic area. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Using evidence-based approaches

I would like to commend BilledMammal for their evidence-based approach. This way, people can discuss methodology and evidence rather than assert things about the state of PIA. Now, I was a bit disappointed to only score 89% for the percentage edits in the topic area because it is supposed to 100%, or thereabouts as it says on my user page, so I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. But regarding methodology, the including "all editors with more than 500 edits since 2022 who have made 50%+ of their edits in the ARBPIA topic area" will inevitably miss a lot. Perhaps it is unavoidable to some extent. It misses the contributions of AndresHerutJaim's socks for example (the cause of a previous ArbCom case about canvassing). By my count, their socks made 1927 revisions spread over 159 accounts since 2022 to articles and talk pages within the topic area (using the same definition of the topic area as BilledMammal). If you choose revisions since 2020 it's 3703, and since 2018 it's 6504, and I'm not sure any of the accounts would cross the 50% in topic area threshold. And that's just the identified accounts for one sock edit source. We have no idea what the success rate is for sock identification. And somewhat dishearteningly I can see several more (what I regard as) possible socks in the activity statistics. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PIA dynamics

If there is a case, I think one of the things it could try to address is the following (often cyclical) property of the system, which appears to be quite common as far as I can tell.

An obvious sledgehammer partial solution to Step 2 is to just EC protect every article in the PIA topic area to disincentivize disposable non-EC account creation, but Step 1 should not happen in the first place and is clearly much harder to address.

I'll also add that in my view, a case that only includes parties who do not employ deception, who are not evading topic bans/blocks etc., is about as likely to succeed in producing good results as a study that only includes data from participants who are easy to access, while ignoring an important subpopulation that is harder to reach. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Replicators (socks) - the gift that keeps giving

Again, hats off to BilledMammal for bring the receipts. Little time to look in detail right now and probably plenty to think about. But one quick comment on 'it demonstrates that the issue of sockpuppets is less significant than we believe.' The amount of sock activity is a difficult thing to image and quantify, a bit like corruption, black markets, Advanced Persistent Threat group activity, but we can see some features.

  • If we just look at 2022 to present, obviously limited to only talking about logged blocked socks that made edits in PIA (with the caveat that we can't know the sock discover rate), we can see the following
    • There were a lot.
    • They made a lot of edits.
    • The average 'SPA-ness' is low (percentage of edits in PIA articles, talk, templates, categories, portal and draft namespaces). They do not generally resemble SPAs.

See plot

  • Note: this statement of mine "obviously limited to only talking about logged blocked socks" is not really true. There is also the network of sock related categories that might contain accounts assigned to sockmasters that do not have log entries that I would capture or log entries at all. The labelling of socks is a bit spotty turning it into a bit of a treasure hunt. But I was too lazy to look. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And as tempted as I am to name names because I think AGF is counterproductive in PIA when dealing with replicating threat actors, I will just say that I can still see many accounts in the stats that I regard (based on technical data) as probable socks. Maybe someone will file SPIs at some point, but it is unlikely to be me because the cost/benefit makes it too expensive. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an idea for a fun project for someone to make something potentially pretty. Build a directed graph of the sock-related part of the ludicrously large Wikipedia category graph and color code the nodes and/or edges for actors that have made PIA revisions (and/or other contentious areas) based on something, revision count, rev date, SPA-ness etc. I imagine the PIA related part of the sock graph would be quite small. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Labels Regarding labelling editors pro-this or pro-that, this is a useful shorthand for casual discussion, but for analysis labelling should really be deterministic/repeatable/based on a decision procedure etc. Also, if I had to apply a label to myself it would be pro-Wikipedia (or maybe pro-human...that might be a stretch thinking about it). I think for many people it seems to be quite easy to mis-categorize pro-Wikipedia as pro-Palestinian. Perhaps this follows naturally from the claim that the media, organizations, governments, academia (everyone?) etc. is biased against Israel, so following sources will make you look biased against Israel. It's all a bit self-referential. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:36, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BilledMammel, that table is interesting, but my challenge would be - what is the utility of an unfalsifiable label? Also, if I made that I would have pretty low credence in the labels because I don't know how to write an algorithm to reliably tell the difference between "a pro-Palestine point of view"/"a pro-Israel point of view" and a policy compliant source-based view. This is the tricky thing for me. There's the personal bias, plus a person's source sampling bias that limits what they can see, plus their personal interpretation of policies like due weight, plus what they personally identify as bias etc. and you can't just do a Fourier transform to decompose them. Sticking a label on editors strikes me as an understandable attempt to impose order on something more complex and chaotic. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked. - Thebiguglyalien

This statement is false.

  • It is the kind of error that contributes to the long-term inability to resolve the issues in the topic area.
  • If you can't sanction or block a person, you can't solve problems. It's like sending the dishonest people to prisons without gates, then blaming the honest people who haven't been sent to prison for the crime rate.
  • Being "discovered" is not the same as being reported e.g.
  • And being reported is not the same as being blocked. There are many "discovered" sockpuppets operating in the topic area right now. Many people in the topic area can "see" the socks like bright objects. They are part of the community of editors, they are major contributors, they have an important effect on the dynamics of the topic area, and most importantly they divide the community into sanctionable and unsanctionable classes. And remember, sockpuppets are not just accounts that makes hundreds edits from a single account and stick around, although there are plenty of those. The majority of sockpuppets make tens of edits in PIA and are gone. Most are probably not "discovered" or blocked at all. The vast majority of articles in the topic area are not EC protected so there is no barrier in place, just the vigilance of editors who spot and revert EC violations. Then, of course, that topic area monitoring and revert work will be counted as part of estimates of how much someone resembles an SPA, which is pretty funny. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Zero0000's A proper analysis would need to compare reliable sources against !voting patterns....absolutely. I would go as far as to say the entire pro-Israel vs pro-Palestine model is very likely to be the wrong model. It's a trap, sometimes used intentionally, sometimes used unintentionally, something that traps people into ways of thinking about solutions that cannot possibly produce effective solutions. Better models could be honest vs dishonest, Wikipedia rules > personal preferences vs Wikipedia rules < personal preferences. There are probably lots of better models. The objective function for PIA is poorly defined. If it is something like to maximize policy compliance and minimize disruption, how can we ever hope to achieve that if we can't even prevent a person from editing in the topic area. Does anyone believe blocking the O.maximov and FourPi sock accounts will change anything when they probably already have alternative disposable accounts. Nothing can be done about personal bias. But plenty can be done about reducing dishonesty in the topic area. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zero0000, regarding The top 20 contributors made 23% of the edits., the 100 revision (in namespaces 0,1) cut off makes these results a particular way of looking at the topic area. Without the limit, the topic area looks a bit different. For example, from 2022-01-01 to the present there were 44739 distinct actors (excluding bots) that made at least 1 edit to a topic area article or talk page. 'Actor' rather than 'user' because that includes 23124 distinct unregistered IPs. And the total number of revisions to those 2 namespaces was 473212 in that period, which is considerably more than the sum of the PIA column in the stats. So, for me, this way of looking at events in the topic area with an edit count cutoff and a notion of dominant contributors presupposes things about the actual nature of the topic area. It divides contributions up in way that is great for pointing fingers in a partisan information war but may not reflect reality very well. From a single account 'contributor' perspective it seems to be the contributors with low edit counts that may have the largest impact on topic area (although it is impossible to really tell). I'll make some plots for the entire topic area over various periods to show who is doing the editing (in terms of account age) when I get a chance. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zero0000, I'm just counting revisions and excluding bots so it shouldn't change the top 20 counts. Or maybe I would get slightly different counts. I haven't actually checked. Should probably do that but I can't imagine it would be significantly different as we are doing roughly the same thing. What would be nice would be to see how many reverts are spent on enforcing ARBECR, but there is a lot of diversity in people's edit summaries making it tricky. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think "restore faith in the project that many do not have, or have lost" is a valid objective. Policy compliance has no dependency at all on the amount of faith people out in the world have in it. The fact that there are plenty of easily manipulated people out there who can be persuaded to believe something shouldn't have any impact on content decisions in my view. There are rules, we should just follow the rules, and people who don't like the result are free to whine about it and monetize the attention they receive. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ban evasion

In terms of motions, can anyone think of any simple practical measures that might reduce the impact of ban evasion on the topic area? Unfortunately, it seems that ban evading users tend to be sampled from the ends of the bias spectrum and some have a tendency to start fires. It could be argued that this entire discussion was triggered (at least in part) by ban evasion, so it seems appropriate to try to address it.

It's obviously not possible to know how many edits are made by ban evading actors, but it is possible to quantify ban and block evading revisions in the PIA topic area (or rather an approximation of the topic area - templated pages and pages in both Wikiprojects Israel and Palestine).

I don't have any ideas other than perhaps lowering the barrier for checkuser tool usage in PIA to a set of simple triggers like edit warring, receiving a block, ban evasion-like behavior (e.g. mismatch between edit count and experience), anything that could be considered "disruptive editing", the phrase used in the checkuser policy. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, thank you for the response. I understand. I sometimes wonder whether WMF would benefit from adopting some kind of 'commitment to authenticity' that you see in some social media companies that have to deal with similar ban evasion/inauthentic actor issues. Now that Wikipedia has matured into one of the most-visited websites, plays an important role in large-language model training and will probably become even more significant with models using Wikipedia/Wikidata etc. as knowledge bases to ground their responses, a system that doesn't do very well at preventing people willing to use deception from generating content and participating in consensus forming processes seems a bit problematic. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coretheapple, regarding "the Wikipedia community as a whole has avoided this subject area". I also thought this was probably the case, but the data appears to indicate that it is not the case. The chart in section 'Meme check #1' above appears to show that the topic area is more attractive to editors than Wikipedia in general, at least based on a comparison of the topic area and 15,000 random selected articles. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yearly and monthly revision counts by all actors in the PIA topic area over time

See plot (requested by Levivich). Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ABHammad, actually, my interest is largely technical nowadays. I need results to evaluate the reliability of output generated by something I'm working on out of curiosity. And I would still appreciate an answer to my question here. But I'm also interested in honesty in the topic area because I think its undervalued. So, if there is to be a battle it should on the side of honesty and against dishonesty via ban evasion. But it is a costly battle that I suspect can't be won with the current tools and culture, so I'm unsure whether it is a battle worth fighting. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:02, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

re: Nableezy's "Given the result of the SPI, I will simply restate my core contention..." a contention that I think is objectively and observably true, can I suggest that more effort is made to ensure that AE is a ban evading actor-free zone. It is not a safe space for honest people to discuss and resolve issues without interference from dishonest ban evading partisan actors. On the plus side, when a sock lobbies for blocks, this could be a complement because it might suggest they think the other party is more honest than them and will not employ ban evasion if blocked. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scharb, perhaps you should consider strengthening your defenses against misinformation if you are planning to stick around in the topic area. I became aware of the 'Wikipedia for Palestine' YouTube stuff when Jewish Insider's 'Inside the war over Israel at Wikipedia' article came out. I checked view counts on June 27, 2024, or thereabouts when I received notification of the article from a ('pro-Israel') Wikipedia colleague, and the videos had tens of views at the time. Unfortunately, as usual, the article is not very useful from a Wikipedia perspective. There's also a discussion from September here too with Amayorov. You should provide the statistical evidence to support the statement "a group of 40 people" are "contributing more than 90% of text to the vast majority of articles", and explain, even if this is the case, why this would be a problem or inconsistent with other parts of Wikipedia. You might be interested in the Meme check #2 data above. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just share screen on zoom; a bunch of people see it without affecting the view count.
I'll agree the article isn't very useful from a Wikipedia standard, they neglected to archive the social media evidence involved which is just an absurd mistake. If the dominant group's highest ideal were NPOV and Wikipedia principles, that would be one thing, but they're clearly pushing a POV and playing for a team. Scharb (talk) 02:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scharb, for interest, here are revision count (plus pageview count) plots for all Top-importance articles in the Israel and Palestine projects and an intersection of the lists of High-importance articles for those projects (see User_talk:Sean.hoyland/Archive_17#Graph_of_edits_by_socks for background). Is it the case that "a group of 40 people" contributed "more than 90% of text" for those articles, and if so, what useful things can we conclude from this that might help ArbCom and the PIA editor community? Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Field of view

If an objective is to remove editors in PIA for whatever reason, regardless of whether their edits are consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, it's obviously useful to focus on individuals, contextless statistics and hope that people are credulous or lazy enough to buy what you are selling.

What happens if you widen the aperture to see what the topic area actually looks like in terms of how revisions are distributed across the PIA editor population? Does it change the picture? I've tried to look at this. I took a statistical snapshot of the PIA topic area around 24 September 2024 going back to the year 2000 to generate a plot requested by Levivich (see Yearly and monthly revision counts by all actors in the PIA topic area over time above). This is at a per actor per month resolution, so it's useful here, to speed up analysis.

Let's limit things to the 2022 onwards period to match the period used for many of the statistics presented in this case and take a look at where these '40 editors' mentioned by Scharb fit into the big picture. I assume these are the top 40 non-bot contributors to the topic area in terms of revision counts (keeping the same model/approximation of the topic used for most of this discussion). So, these 40 editors will likely be the top 40 in BilledMammal's User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_activity_statistics_complete, or thereabouts, give or take a bit of statistical jitter in revision counting. Broadly my revision counts agree with BilledMammal's. Deltas are in the tens of revisions range.

Let's start by looking at one actor, Selfstudier, the top contributor.

  • According to the stats, they made over 15000 revisions in PIA. How does this fit into the big picture?
  • You can ask, 'How many other actors were there?' and the answer is 46,325. There were 46,326 unique actors (registered accounts and IPs) that made at least 1 revision in the PIA topic area during the 2022 onwards time window. It's quite a lot.
  • You can ask, 'How many revisions were there in PIA altogether', and the answer is 494,816 revisions in the PIA topic area during the 2022 onwards time window. Also, quite a lot.

So, this top contributor is one out of 46,326 and they made very slightly more than 3% of the revisions in the PIA topic area during the 2022 onwards time window. How about the entire 40 editor set? Their contributions make up just over a quarter, around 26.4% of all of the revisions in the PIA topic area during that time window. You can see the results for all actors here. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:28, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pointless whining about CU policy that is too long

Red-tailed hawk, I hate to pass up an opportunity to pointlessly whine about CU policy and the way we torture SPI clerks (and editors) with evidence when a quick CU might save time and effort. Apologies for the length. FWIW, I think CU policy is not fit for purpose and should be changed so that it does authorize the sorts of checks advocated by Sir Kenneth Kho. I mean, we could just have checkusers say "XYZ has features A, B and C, so let's go fishing", A, B and C being agreed triggers like edit warring etc. We just chose not to, apparently in part because policy ranks things like authenticity and use of deception lower than other considerations. That's fine, but it's a choice that splits the community into sanctionable and unsanctionable classes, which has all sorts of undesirable consequences. Systems elsewhere emphasize authenticity and detecting inauthenticity. They don't rely on people noticing things. They actively fish for inauthentic accounts continuously.

An experienced ban evading actor who wants to hold on to their account won't be leaving very much evidence of sockpuppetry. Often the kind of evidence SPI reports rely on won't reach the CU trigger threshold until they have made hundreds or even thousands of edits (with enough tells), the majority of which are likely to be constructive, adding a complicated cost vs benefit aspect.

Maybe it's interesting to look at a concrete example, pretend there is no existing policy, and consider what should happen if the objective is to minimize ban evasion. This is a real example from the PIA topic area.

  • There is an article with the following properties
    • 87 revisions
    • 26 unique actors
    • 940 pageviews in the last 30 days
    • 7 out of the 87 revisions are by accounts logged as employing ban evasion.
    • 5 of those are by an account classified as part of this set with 63 accounts.
    • 1 is by an account classified as part of this set with 47 accounts.
    • 1 is by an account classified as part of this set with 1058 accounts.
  • For context, those revisions are 87 out of well over half a million revisions in the topic area since the article was created. So, the article is a small dot in an ocean of revisions.
  • A new actor of interest.
    • 1 of the 87 revisions is by this actor.
    • The revision touched something last touched by a long term perceived opponent of one of the 3 LTAs that edited the article.
    • After starting off with a few ARBECR violations earlier this year in Feb and July, the account resumed editing in October speeding through the EC edit count requirement using one of the many tools Wikipedia provides to help new accounts do this by making minor constructive edits.
    • The account immediately resumed editing in the topic area after acquiring the EC privilege. See here for plots of the individual and cumulative byte size changes of their edits. These kinds of signal shapes are usually treated as 'gaming' in PIA, and that is what happened in this case. Their rights were revoked.
  • Now the important bit (for me anyway).
    • What should happen in a case like this?
    • None of this is evidence of sockpuppetry.
    • But it is something that should cause an update to the probability assigned to a default 'not a sock' assumption. The fishy-ness should go up for fisherfolk.
    • For me, CU policy should be context dependent. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a one size fits all policy when ban evasion is one of the reasons the space is split into contentious and non-contentious topics. I think CU policy should also be about probabilities rather than just gotcha evidence, probabilities in the PIA context, given its ban evasion profile and history.
    • Asking the question, 'Has the likelihood of ban evasion moved away from zero far enough to justify a CU?' based on an agreed set of behaviors associated with LTAs (edit warring, getting reported at AE etc.), might be a more effective and cost-effective way to deal with ban evasion.

Interestingly, the Wikimedia CheckUser policy page has nothing to say about evidence. It says, "There must be a valid reason to use the CheckUser tools to investigate a user." Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zero0000, I have a theory about the statistics of "massacre" in titles in PIA, that it's an emergent property of the system caused by an asymmetry, but I have never checked it, so it could be nonsense. As I've mentioned when this topic has come up before, there are no barriers for editors putting the word massacre in the title of a new article they create. And article titles acquire a kind of inertial mass as soon as the editor hits save because there is an asymmetry for this word in terms of the amount of work needed to create a title containing it vs changing a title containing it. So, the stats could be dependent, in part, on whether team A or team B creates more new articles about massacre-like events, as well as the amount of attention/work the article receives after creation. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iskandar323

Statement by Dan Murphy

The "dispute" as defined here is "accounts on Wikipedia disagree about various things." In my case I have recently disagreed with a number of accounts about the history of Zionism. On the one hand, early zionists and historians of zionism describe it as a colonial project of settlement. On the other hand, some wikipedia accounts really don't want the article here to describe it as such. Many of those accounts have turned out to be sockpuppets of previous accounts long banned from this area. I'd be shocked if the Peleyoetz account named in this report isn't one, too [30]. The abuse of sockpuppets is a powerful advantage at Wikipedia, and wooden enforcement of teh rulz about conduct, ignorant of content and context, a powerful disincentive to being honest and straightforward.

No matter. This unfocused, throw everything at the wall and see what sticks request, is a bad idea.Dan Murphy (talk) 13:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

My view is that if this is to be an arbitration case that it should be pretty wide, and not just the four editors Barkeep named. The tendentious editing, including obvious examples of canvassing and off-wiki coordination, in this topic area stretches well beyond those four names, and I don’t think looking at four editors in a vacuum in this, or any other topic where the temperature in the real world is beyond mildly warm, is all that productive. I’m well aware of the committees past rulings on standards of behavior, but I for one am unable to understand how anybody can think a topic like this, where the real world conflict it is covering contains accusations of ongoing crimes against humanity up to and including rape as a weapon of war, mass indiscriminate killings, and genocide is going to remain calm cool and collected. nableezy - 01:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems highly likely that this is going to be accepted as a full case, but I do want to push back on some of the claims being bandied about here. There is this misconception that there are "pro-Israel" editors vs "pro-Palestinian" editors, and that is both not true and has never been true. Once upon a time, in a land far away, there was a similar argument, where one "side" was claimed to be the pro-Palestinian side, and the other the pro-Israel side. But that, like most of these disputes, was not true. One side was indeed pushing an identifiably nationalistic narrative identified with one "side" in the geopolitical conflict, the other was not. The two "sides" here have never been symmetrical here. As far as BilledMammal's highly subjective understanding of bludgeoning, he lists me as having bludgeoned Talk:Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing#MEMRI quote, but a, that isnt a formal discussion, and b. that is a back and forth with a handful of users. That isnt bludgeoning by any reasonable definition. They also somehow neglected to add Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gaza Health Ministry qualifier, where BM has some 73 comments there. I dont think that subpage is accurate either in its definition or its counting, and Id caution that evidence by editors who are highly involved not simply be accepted as accurate.

Also, regarding AirshipJungleman29 reading of my initial comment, I dont mean to say that civility does not matter, of course it does. But I also think people need to keep in mind that human beings are emotional creatures and that this is a topic that anybody who is involved in the real world is going to have moments where those emotions overtake their willingness to pretend that everybody here is editing in the best of faith and we're all one big happy community. And beyond that, as far as I am aware civility on Wikipedia has never meant not swearing. And I personally find insulting my intelligence through making specious arguments to be much more uncivil than a "bullshit" said in exasperation. But I was not saying WP:CIV should not count in this topic area, Im just saying if somebody is being realistic about how editing between people who are involved in a conflict in which accusations of rape and genocide are happening in the real world they should understand it is not always going to be roses and butterflies. nableezy - 16:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I dont want to get too caught up in what I think are opinions of people uninformed on both the actual editing in this topic area as well as being generally uninformed on what the sources actually support in this topic area. Ill just restate that this is not "pro-Israel" vs "pro-Palestinian" POV pushing, it is editors who edit according to the best available sources and editors who edit on emotion and time-wasting tactics. And those things should not be treated as though they are opposing camps. Those editing according to our content policies against those editing contrary to them is not a POV-pushing battle. Number 57's complaints about this, as somebody who is informed on how editing goes here, have to my ears always rang hollow. Consensus was against their position on things like including language on the illegality of Israeli settlements in their articles, and so he has openly called those who supported including such a thing, including me, POV pushers. Im sorry he feels that way, Ive never really been aware of what I could do to ameliorate that impression of his, but Ill just state I disagree with the premise of his claim that there is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Wikipedia to push their POV. Since I know he means me, Ill just state that I do not edit Wikipedia to push a POV. I edit Wikipedia to try to make it so that article in this topic area are based on the balance of the best sources available. And if somebody does not like what the sources actually say about this topic, thats their problem, not mine. Im aware of my reputation on certain websites, but in my entire time here my purpose has always been to bring the best sources I can find to an article and to base the content I write and the arguments I make on those sources. nableezy - 23:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thats what I meant Number 57, you objected to the consensus developed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues/Archive. Legality of Israeli settlements about including that information in each article. And since then, you have repeatedly called myself and others POV-pushers for reasons I have not yet figured out. And you have, again, that entire time played up that a couple of pro-Israel users opposed your RFA. I dont know what is disingenuous about my statement, I didnt even say anything about you besides that you have repeatedly called me a POV pusher since then. nableezy - 23:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thebiguglyalien that was a well advertised and well attended RFC a baker's dozen years ago. What level of consensus it was really has no bearing on anything at this point. nableezy - 23:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I could collapse this section and point to Rosguill's instead. nableezy - 16:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it really acceptable for an admin to be saying on this board your atrocious behaviour to an editor? And to have the gall to say others are making things toxic? nableezy - 16:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This page is considerably more "toxic" than nearly any talk page in this topic area. Any number of people are making winking references to editors and claiming some misbehavior with absolutely zero evidence besides their vibes. Not to mention the way over the top comments by one admin. I cant say I would be looking forward to a case, as to be blunt with you all ArbCom historically has focused on the surface issues of these topics and not the actual root causes, but either open a case or dont. That or aggressively clerk some of these statements. That is if we want "decorum" to apply here too. nableezy - 17:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am largely in agreement with ToBeFree here. If this is a referral of the AE thread then the committee should rule on that AE thread if that seems worthwhile. If a full case is warranted then it should be at WP:ARC, where somebody like me can present evidence on tendentious and disruptive editing in this topic area outside of the AE request being referred here. The person who was brought to AE has not made a single response to any of this, but somehow we have a number of users rising up to demand topic bans be given out like candy on Halloween. I think there are any number of things that the committee can do in this topic area, hell should do in this topic area. I dont really see how many of them are at all related to what was referred to them here. nableezy - 14:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, BilledMammals "evidence" is dishonest. He claims I supported massacre here because I opposed "incident" as euphemistic for the murder of 7 civilians, including 6 children. When I said Im not opposed to some move here, but incident is absurd. Israel was accused of a war crime here, every casualty was an unarmed civilian, and they were purposely targeted. Calling this an incident is even more POV than calling it a massacre. You know what’s a problem in this topic area? People making things up and saying it with a straight face so that others believe them. Again, I would highly recommend that you all not take such absolutely bad faith "evidence" at face value. There are multiple examples in that table in which BM is straight up lying about an editors position. Oh, and guess who started that RM? The supposedly non-existent problem of socks. nableezy - 11:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not jumping to anything, you have repeatedly misrepresented others views, you have repeatedly portrayed one discussion that was focused on one topic to support positions on unrelated topics they did not focus on. You did the same exact thing at AE, where you claimed that Iskandar323 supported the use of massacre where all he opposed was your attempt at obfuscating that it was a school that was attacked. You do this constantly, you choose to portray comments in whatever light that makes it appear that your argument is intellectually consistent and honest when it is invariably not. I’ll be happy to substantiate that further if this gets to an evidence phase, but my point here was that arbs should not treat your evidence as anything other than a partisan and dishonest portrayal of what happened. nableezy - 14:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I dont see why AE appeals should be at the discretion of the imposing admin be only heard by the committee. AE actions are already superblocks, removing two of the places they can be heard turns them closer to super duper blocks. The threshhold to overturn an AE action is already pretty high, and I cannot really understand why anybody thinks they should be even higher. Enforcd BRD is basically making what a skilled obstructionist can turn into a glacial place into an ice age. How would consensus be determined? Do only discussions with uninvolved admins closing get resolved? Things that would actually help? A quicker trigger finger on talk page bans for foruming. Same for pushing unsourced views. The anti-bludgeoning one is good in theory, maybe good in practice maybe not. Can find out I guess. But the enforced BRD one I think is accepting that anybody who can wikilawyer well enough will be able to freeze an article; Oh its a V failure ... Oh, I see the source, well VNOT, and it is not DUE ... Well I see it's widely cited but it still is not NPOV ... No, I dont have any sources showing that its views are challenged, I think you should first demonstrate that all sources agree with this POV ... Well I disagree, and ONUS requires consensus and because I disagree there is no consensus. And repeat. nableezy - 21:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is a fundamental misreading of the topic area to open a case with that list of parties. I decline to take SFR's bait here from his last statement, something I should have done in the AE that precipated this request in hindsight, but if there is a case to be opened then I think you all need to examine the serial tendentious editing and yes propagandizing that occurs here. And the list of parties should expand with that scope. It would, in my opinion, include users such as Andrevan and SPECIFICO, along with a number of less established users who have repeatedly engaged in such editing such as the group of users who, along with an Icewhiz sock and some compromised accounts, were distorting the sources at Israel to obfuscate the causes of the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948, eg האופה (diff, search various causes), ABHammad (diff). If you actually are willing to examine what editors are doing in these articles with something deeper than counting reverts and actually looking at who is pushing through material at odds with the scholarship then please do that. If this, like cases of yore, is going to be a superficial look at it then I suppose I cant convince you otherwise, but, as the committee did back then and as some of the admins here were trying to do in an AE case before most of the participants were found to be compromised accounts or socks of banned editors (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive336#Nishidani, see for example this comment by one of the admins brushing aside the later proven completely correct suspicion that a user was not exactly in good standing) end up, as the most likely scenario, further cede this topic area to the dishonest editors such as NoCal100 and Icewhiz who never really get blocked or banned, because they just make another account to start over with. My comment at that AE remains my view on both that request and this one. nableezy - 23:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pins and needles to see what happens with Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/OdNahlawi and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Icewhiz, which probably should be merged together. Ignore this as a ranting from a problematic regular, but my view of what is happening here, as it has over and over and over and over again, is that fires are being started by banned editors with zero inclination to be honest, and people who are observing from a distance are saying oh it's so hot over there. Whatever you all decide here, my sincerest hope is that your efforts be pointed towards the goal of making an encyclopedia. And I hope that in keeping that goal in mind that you do what you can to help those editors who are serious about that aim as demonstrated by their editing and remove those who are not. I doubt this is going to be the way, but who knows maybe Wikipedia will surprise me. nableezy - 19:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the result of the SPI, I will simply restate my core contention about nearly every one of these issues. We are all collectively being played by a few individuals who do not operate, at all, within the rules here. Yes, it is hot, and there are certainly times where my patience ran thin and I was harsher than I should have been and raised the temperature myself. But we're all humans here, it is unreasonable to expect people to deal with bad faith editing repeatedly, sometimes continuously, without occasionally getting pissed off. Icewhiz, NoCal, Andres, they have an unlimited number of opportunities to bait somebody into something ban-worthy. The editors who are operating in good faith here and are abiding by our policies are targeted over and over by these bad faith actors, and we're expected to have an unlimited amount of patience and good will. If not having that unlimited amount of patience is ban-worthy then so be it, but we are being played here. nableezy - 21:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49 I'm not blaming all the topics ills on just socks of banned users, but I am saying that they are primarily responsible for getting things to this temperature where people pop off. You were on the committee that dealt with the email canvassing by one LTA. You and all the current members of this committee (I think), know that I knew for a fact that I was editing alongside people who were lying to my face. That I knew people were cheating and attempting to skew content through underhanded methods. If you look at the past NoCal100 SPIs you will see over and over again that I knew that I was once again editing with NoCal100, and I just had to suck it up and keep editing alongside somebody I knew was lying. For example Inf-in MD was reported, by me, in Oct 2021. Kept editing until being blocked in December 2021 as a sock after he once again tried to bait me into responding in a way that would result in my ban. Im not going to pretend Im perfect here, Im not going to pretend that there arent times where the frustration of editing with people I *know* are lying to me doesnt boil over. And yes, I do need to work on not letting that happen, but I dont think even you, as level-headed and calm as you invariably are on-wiki, would never lose your cool when you are being lied to over and over. Maybe you wouldnt, after all you were elected repeatedly to positions of trust based on that disposition and demeanor and I have not been (yet). But I dont think it is reasonable to think that people are going to maintain the patience of Job through years of underhanded efforts directed at them. nableezy - 15:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BilledMammal

There are a significant number of issues in this topic area that it is likely only ARBCOM can address, including:

  1. POV pushing
    Including both editors switching their stance to conform to their POV (for example, supporting using massacre as a descriptive term only when Israelis were targeted, or only when Palestinians were targeted) and editors misrepresenting sources.
  2. Stealth canvassing
  3. Incivility
    Occasional lapses are forgivable, but it has become common for editors to ignore the fourth pillar. This drives editors away from the topic area, worsening issues with POV pushing and stealth canvassing.
    The only way the topic area can be fixed is by fixing this.
  4. Bludgeoning
    See ARBPIA discussion statistics for an assessment of the extent of the problem. For technical reasons, it is currently limited to discussions on article talk pages and at RSN.
    In response to the comment by SashiRolls, only three listings (out of 109) were significantly impacted by sock puppets:
    1. 26 replies out of 59 by Levivich at Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? were to sock puppets
    2. 15 replies out of 45 by Selfstudier at Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? were to sock puppets
    3. 12 replies out of 34 by Selfstudier at Talk:2024 Nuseirat rescue operation/Archive 2#Requested move 9 June 2024 were to sock puppets
    The impact of sock puppets on this issue is trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with. Added 01:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

BilledMammal (talk) 09:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding ScottishFinnishRadish's word limit proposal, I don't think that will have the desired result. Editors are often required to review a wide array of sources, such as when attempting to determining if a viewpoint is in the majority or what the WP:COMMONNAME is, and a word limit will impede this. This will in turn worsen one of the other issues in the topic area, POV pushing.
Instead, I think a comment limit - perhaps ten comments per discussion - will be more effective at preventing the back-and-forth and repetition of points that causes discussions to expand unproductively. BilledMammal (talk) 13:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nableezy: My aim was to review a representative sample of discussions in the topic space, rather than providing a sample biased towards discussions that I was aware of. To do this, I limited the discussions to two clearly defined areas; talk pages in both the Israel and Palestine Wikiprojects, and RSN.
This does mean I missed at least one discussion that I am aware of where I was too enthusiastic, but it also means I missed discussions where you were too enthusiastic - it balances out.
I am also aware, and prominently state in the analysis, that it is only an approximation - while most examples listed will be bludgeoning, exceptions will exist, including possibly the discussion you mention.
Finally, as I said on the analysis page, I am willing to rerun it with different configurations, including an expanded list of discussions. I am also working to implement the recommendations on the talk page, to make the data more accurate and useful. BilledMammal (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rosguill: There is a lot of POVPUSHING at RSN, but from what I've seen the issue is more common - and more effective - in the opposite direction from what you've seen.
For example, looking at two of the discussions you've listed:
Considering that policy doesn't provide any support for considering a source unreliable on grounds of bias, I find this example particularly problematic. BilledMammal (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani: I don’t consider the distinction relevant, because there is no basis in policy to consider sources unreliable due to bias, regardless of the level of bias. Tolerating editors making the assessment that source A is more biased than source B, and thus A is unreliable while B is not, is to tolerate POV pushing. BilledMammal (talk) 23:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani: The purpose of RSN is to determine the reliability of sources, not the level of bias. There is no basis in policy to consider biased sources unreliable, and that means that editors attempting to argue that "source they don’t like" is more biased and thus less reliable than "source they like" are POV pushing.
Alone, not enough to warrant action - but it is another piece of evidence that adds to evidence like only supporting the use of "massacre" when the victims are from the side they support. BilledMammal (talk) 01:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Black Kite: I've attempted to address your request to identify Sub-5000-edit accounts which are basically SPAs on the PIA area, some of which will inevitably be socks but even if they're not are equally disruptive with ARBPIA activity statistics.
I've included all editors with more than 500 edits since 2022 who have made 50%+ of their edits in the ARBPIA topic area. Sub-5000-edit accounts are marked with *; sock puppets and masters are marked with bold.
@Aoidh: What sort of information would be helpful in determining a scope? In addition, will parties be decided at this stage, or will parties be able to be added during the evidence phase? BilledMammal (talk) 12:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the prevalence of issues in the topic area, the following may be helpful:
  1. RM statistics, regarding the prevalence of POV pushing
  2. Activity statistics, regarding the prevalence of sock puppets and single purpose accounts
    @Sean.hoyland: I think it demonstrates that the issue of sockpuppets is less significant than we believe. In 2024, only one sockmaster is in the top 100 editors by edit count within the topic area.
    @Nishidani: I think it also addresses your concerns regarding the parties list; because it shows that the topic area is dominated by editors who generally align with a pro-Palestinian position, we would expect that such editors would make up the majority of a representative party list.
BilledMammal (talk) 05:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nableezy: As I said on that page:

Bolded votes in the discussion were then automatically reviewed to determine whether they supported or opposed. This process is not perfect, and manual review was then used for some of the discussions of the most prolific editors. Please raise any identified misclassifications on the talk page.

Immediately jumping to accusations that an editor is "lying" is not aligned with WP:AGF, and is emblematic of the civility issues in the topic area.
With that said, I don't believe #3 is as incorrect as you make out; your !vote was:

Oppose - euphemistic in the extreme, an "incident" in which an army kills 6 children and a cameraman, and all casualties are civilians? No source calls it an incident either. As far as sources calling it a massacre, well this was in the article until it was removed.

You oppose the move, and you make arguments in support of "massacre".
However, to avoid dispute, I have changed that cell to   -  , as while you can argue you didn't support "massacre", I don't think you're arguing you opposed it? I've also manually reviewed all the others of yours, and they appear correct; if you disagree with any of the others, please let me know.
@Selfstudier: You're right, corrected. Please let me know if there are other misclassifications.
In general, that table is intended to provide on overview of the issue in the topic area, for the purpose of helping the arb's determine scope and parties. While it will be useful in any case that is opened, and I see it as evidence of POV pushing, I don't believe it proves POV pushing by itself; additional analysis of the comments and !votes made is required, such as I did here. BilledMammal (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nableezy: To avoid dispute, I've switched #22 for Iskandar323 to   -  . I've manually re-reviewed all of Iskandar323's other !votes, and they appear accurate, but if you have any issues with them please let me know - although preferably on the talk page, to avoid requiring the Arb's to wade through the collaborative process of improving that table. If I refuse to change the table I think that would be when it is appropriate to raise here. BilledMammal (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani: Seggallion (talk · contribs) is included in the activity statistics; they're grouped as one of Icewhiz's socks:   Icewhiz (talk · contribs) (×6)  . As for the RM statistics, Seggallion only participated in one; if you like, I can try to group sockpuppets under their masters as I did at the activity statistics, but better to discuss that on the talk page. BilledMammal (talk) 14:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zero0000: My sympathies lie more with Israel than with Palestine, although I try to recognize and account for any bias that introduces in my thinking - while editors are allowed to have a POV, I think the first step in ensuring their editing is aligned with NPOV is for them to recognize that POV, as it allows them to try to manage it.
I think it would also be helpful if you told us how you classify yourself? BilledMammal (talk) 14:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sean.hoyland: Personally, I don't subscribe to the position that the media, organizations, governments, academia (everyone?) etc. is biased against Israel; while some individual sources are biased, I also think a lot of the criticism of Israel is fair.
There are some editors who do subscribe to that position - but there are also editors who subscribe to the position that the opposite is true, that they are biased against Palestine.
Generally, I don't think we're mischaracterizing pro-Wikipedia as pro-Palestinian, but if you want something more solid I think this table by Thebiguglyalien, and my RM table, is useful. BilledMammal (talk) 15:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that the label is unfalsifiable; evidence can be provided for and against it.
I think we can also ensure it is accurate through a collaborative process. For example, looking at the top 20 editors at activity statistics, I believe that 13, collectively making 75,383 edits to the topic area since 2022, generally align with a pro-Palestinian position. I believe two, collectively making 5,832 edits, generally align with a pro-Israeli position. The remaining five, collectively making 19,550 edits, are either neutral or have a position that I have been unable to determine:
Extended content

Generally align with a pro-Palestinian position:

  1. Selfstudier
  2. Iskandar323
  3. CarmenEsparzaAmoux
  4. Makeandtoss
  5. Nableezy
  6. Nishidani
  7. Onceinawhile
  8. Irtapil
  9. Durranistan
  10. Zero0000
  11. Ali Ahwazi
  12. Vice regent
  13. IOHANNVSVERVS

Generally align with a pro-Israeli position:

  1. Tombah
  2. BilledMammal

Neutral or have a position that I have been unable to determine:

  1. Chomik1129
  2. Wafflefrites
  3. Borgenland
  4. IvanScrooge
  5. Arminden
If you - or anyone - disagree with any of these, then I think it would be helpful to discuss so that we can create a consensus list, although I would ask that the discussion be opened somewhere other than here. For the avoidance of doubt, this doesn't mean these editors are POV pushing. For example, while I feel it's obvious where Vice regent's sympathies lie, I've been very impressed by their ability to put them aside to comply with NPOV.
As for the utility, I think it helps us determine whether concerns such as those raised by Nishidani that the party list is unrepresentative, as well as concerns such as those raised by Number 57 that the topic area is dominated by editors holding a specific POV, are accurate.
As a general note, I think one of the issues with the topic area is that it is common for editors to refuse to acknowledge their own POV, while frequently insisting that the editors they disagree with have a POV. It's possible to manage a POV and edit neutrally, but only if one is able to recognize and acknowledge that POV - the frequent failure, on both sides, to do so is why we have a POV pushing issue in this topic area. BilledMammal (talk) 16:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich and Nishidani: The terms just means that the editor sympathizes with that side more than the other. Both positions are reasonable, and it doesn't mean they are anti-Palestinian/anti-Israeli, nor does it mean that there is a problem with those editors contributions.
All it does is help us understand the dynamics of the topic area, and is particularly helpful in understanding the background to comments like I say that because there is a massive imbalance in the people singled out, according to the usual perceptions of the IP area's POV-stand-off.
I also think, Levivich, that you're too focused on the sock issue. It exists, although perhaps it is not as impactful as we previously believed, but socks aren't the only issue in the topic area. POV-pushing among established editors is also rife, and is far more impactful than POV-pushing by socks.
The "massacre" RM's demonstrate that well; we have editors consistently, based on their own POV, saying that massacre's are only perpetrated by one side - and when we review those discussions we find that those editors present contradictory arguments to support this disparity.
(Nishidani, I do have more to say in regards to your comments - I'm not ignoring the questions/statements you made - but I don't have time at the moment) BilledMammal (talk) 22:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani: You misunderstand; I’m using the second definition of "sympathise", not the first. BilledMammal (talk) 22:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zero0000: That’s a discussion about moving from a title using "massacre" (Re'im music festival massacre) to a title using "massacre" (Supernova music festival massacre) In other words, the "massacre" aspect isn’t being considered, which is why it isn’t included in the table:

discussions that proposed moving an article to or away from a title containing "massacre" were reviewed

Can you clarify your point about the other articles? I don’t fully understand the argument you are trying to make.
(Also, I would appreciate an answer to the question I asked you above, when I answered the equivalent question from you) BilledMammal (talk) 04:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zero0000:
Regarding this comment:
For your first point, I disagree that it sheds factual light. There is no useful information from someone supporting moving "massacre" to "massacre"; indeed, it is indistinguishable from someone opposing moving "massacre" to "massacre".
For you second point, I want to say I am tired of the incivility in this topic area. It drove me from it before, with the only reason I returned to it being the current conflict, and it is sufficiently bad that I believe as soon as the current conflict ends I will withdraw again.
Both your points, but especially the second, are emblematic of that incivility. A dozen requests have been made of me at User talk:BilledMammal/ARBPIA activity statistics and User talk:BilledMammal/ARBPIA discussion statistics, and I have spent a considerable amount of time addressing those requests, including two of three you made.
However, you ignore all of this, to focus on one of two that I haven't yet been able to address - and you use that failure to accuse me of manipulating the data to prevent it from disturb[ing] the point [I] want to make. I admit, I don't consider it a priority (although I have already spent some time on it), as I don't see what useful information it would provide, and your explanation didn't clarify that - but not prioritizing your request is not the same as manipulating the data, and there is no justification for these assumptions of bad faith.
Regarding this comment:
(a) - It does; Edits made since 2022 to article and talk space
(c) - This is actually similar to the other request that so far I've been unable to comply with. If you can provide me a couple of topic areas of similar size to ARBPIA, I can address both your request and NebYs. BilledMammal (talk) 08:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SashiRolls: Because it’s data, not methodology.
I'm not sure why you think that I believe it is unrelated to disruption in the topic area. It is related, but it’s not in the scope of that table, which is focused on presenting information about individual actors.
If you want to present evidence about grouped actors, I again encourage you to do so. BilledMammal (talk) 12:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000_case1

I object to being listed here. But now that I'm here, I'll say that I don't see any suggestions so far that would make an improvement to the I/P area. Here are some points:

  • If any restrictions are imposed on the area, they should apply to everyone and not to some arbitrary list like this one. One of the notable things about the I/P area in the past several months is the remarkable number of new and revived accounts that have joined in, mostly on one side of the equation and many with scant knowledge of the subject. Quite a lot of the disputes arise because of them, not because of the people likely to comment at AE.
  • Imposing a limit on contributions that consists of a word limit or edit limit will cause delight to the tag teams, who will take full advantage of their combined greater limit.
  • Some types of discussion such as a negotiation between two editors should not have a limit at all. Also, in general there is no way to define "a discussion" except in the case of formal discussions like RfCs. The main points of dispute are brought up repeatedly and don't have clear boundaries. This means that a limit on "discussions" will just produce a lot of arguments over whether something was part of the same discussion or part of a different discussion.
  • Bludgeoning does not mean making a lot of edits. Replying to everyone who makes a contrary comment is bludgeoning, but repeatedly bringing new reliable sources is called good editing.
  • There is a reason why many editors who enter the I/P area quickly decide that it is toxic and controlled by a cabal. It's because they come along armed with nothing except strong political opinions and a few newspaper articles, and don't like it when they meet experienced editors familiar with the vast academic literature. The small fraction of new editors who arrive with genuine knowledge of the topic have a much better time of it. All of this is exactly as it should be. Zerotalk 11:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is something that will improve the atmosphere of formal discussions (RMs, RfCs, AfDs, etc): Require everyone to stick to their own statement, regardless of how many times they add to it (like at AE). This will eliminate 90% of bludgeoning right away. For RfCs: one statement in the !votes section and one statement in the Discussion section. Zerotalk 09:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor Sean.hoyland: It's great to see someone present actual evidence. The number of distinct editors in I/P has remained essentially the same for the past 8 years until it suddenly jumped up at the start of the present war. I wonder, is there a simple way to show the same data without the articles specifically related to the war? Removing articles created from Oct 7, 2023 onwards might be a good approximation. Don't spend time on it unless it is easy. Zerotalk 01:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To editor CaptainEek: I don't think ArbCom has an obligation to resolve the AE case. The fact is that there is nothing about it which AE could not handle perfectly well by itself. What you should do is send it back to AE (taking the cue from the practice of appellant courts sending cases back to the referring lower court). Meanwhile, no case has been made for PIA5. We have seen wild assertions without evidence, that's all, and it would be a mistake to take them at face value. Considering that there is a shooting war going on right now, ARBPIA is actually in better shape than one would expect. I've been editing in ARBPIA for over 22 years and for most of that time it was in worse shape than now. Zerotalk 04:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor BilledMammal: In several places, such as here you have granted yourself the right to classify other editors as "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestinian". Please tell us how you classify yourself. Zerotalk 14:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor BilledMammal: Please add this RM to your table, and mark Iskandar323 as supporting "massacre" in the title. Sorry that it breaks the pattern. Readers should also note the selection bias in your table: even though many editors who supposedly only support "massacre" when the victims are Palestinians frequented Be'eri massacre, Kfar Aza massacre and Alumim massacre, none of them started an RM nor (on a cursory scan) questioned the use of "massacre". But this tacit acceptance of the facts is absent from your analysis. This is just one example of how your raw data tends to misrepresent reality. A proper analysis would need to compare reliable sources against !voting patterns. Zerotalk 04:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor BilledMammal: Your response to my request is what I expected and thanks for confirming my suspicion. You are refusing to present information that might shed factual light on the subject when it disturbs the point you want to make. Another example is your refusal to separate main space from talk space in the other tables (example: only 17% of Selfstudier's edits this year were in mainspace, but who knows?). My greatest fear is that arbitrators will think that you are just a helpful provider of objective information when in fact you are one of the main area protagonists and your data must be critically examined with that in mind. Zerotalk 04:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning pro-Israeli versus pro-Palestinian. Levivich deconstructs this division better than I could, and I wholeheartedly endorse his analysis. In terms of disputes, the most common division is between those who uncritically accept Israeli official versions and those who don't. Being critical of Israeli propaganda is completely different from being uncritical of Palestinian propaganda. Zerotalk 06:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BilledMammal invites me to describe my own pov. In the early days of WP when many editors had never heard of academic journals and very few of the best sources were online, I played a large part in making scholarly writing the gold standard in I/P topics. My philosophy is that articles should be based on the best sources available, regardless of which other sources technically pass RS. No editor other than me openly avoids citing either Ilan Pappe or Ephraim Karsh (academics at opposite ends of the pov spectrum). Incidentally, none of the articles directly related to the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel or the subsequent Israeli response appear among my 1,500 most-edited articles, and Talk pages come it at number 412. No wonder I failed my Pro-Palestinian Activism exam. Zerotalk 06:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some quick comments on this contributions table by Billed Mammal.
(a) The table combines talk page edits and article edits (BM: you should indicate that). The fraction of a user's edits that are in article space differs a lot and needs to be considered before judging an editor's habits, but this information is missing.
(b) Overall, 975 days are included. This means that even the largest edit count, that of Selfstudier, is only 15 edits per day (in fact effectively less, guessing 9–10, as Selfstudier often makes consecutive small edits). My count at #16 in the list is only 2.5 edits per day, which is remarkably few given that my watchlist of length 8,687 includes most ARBPIA articles).
(c) The top 20 contributors made 23% of the edits. I don't know how to check this, but I'm guessing that in most areas of similar size the top 20 contributors make a larger fraction of edits than this. Without this information, it cannot be concluded that a small cabal of editors dominate the area. Zerotalk 07:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At Talk:Re'im_music_festival_massacre/Archive_2#Requested_move_8_October_2023, Iskandar323 actually proposed two titles with "massacre" in them. I'll leave it for readers to decide whether or not this is irrelevant to the claim that Iskandar323 only supports "massacre" when the victims are Palestinian. Zerotalk 09:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sean.Hoyland: I calculated the 23% figure using the total of 431,132 that BM gave elsewhere. Using your total of 473,212 it would be 21% unless your way of counting also changes the top 20 counts. Also, the top contribution was 3.1%. Zerotalk 14:29, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor Barkeep49: I'm sure BilledMammal's counts are more or less correct. Sean.hoyland is getting similar figures. What I object to is posting a mass of figures then claiming it proves things which it doesn't prove. Drawing conclusions from the data requires much more than a first impression. First it requires consideration of whether the apparent trends are really unreasonable — what should we expect the data to look like if the topic is in good shape? Second, it requires consideration of what information is available but not represented in the data and whether it changes the picture. Neither of those two things have been done. (Critique of statistical experiments is one of my professional specialties.) Zerotalk 15:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the motions

Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom. This gives more discretion to admins without good reason. A better idea would be to encourage AE to forward individual appeals to ArbCom if they think ArbCom is better equiped to handle them.

Motion 2a: Word limits. This will be a gift to tag-teams, who will get 500 words per person. Also, this will prevent the most productive comments, which bring reliable sources and quote from them. This motion would effectively limit discussions to "you say, I say", when they should be "this reliable source says".

Motion 3: Involved participants. This is a dreadful idea. Practically nobody attends these discussions without a pov. The effect will be that newcomers summoned on off-wiki groups, who usually come with a minimum of knowledge, will have greater rights than dedicated editors who are expert on the subject. Also, there will be endless argument over who is "involved".

Motion 4: Enforced BRD. This could work if "substantive reason" requires a talk page explanation and not just a brief edit summary.

Zerotalk 07:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gripe. Instead of proposing changes that will make it harder to write articles and not solve any problems, our dear arbs should consult the regulars in the field who know what changes will be beneficial. Zerotalk 08:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CaptainEek: Don't you think that it would be a good idea to say what problem a word limit is supposed to fix? None has been specified except bludgeoning, which is not one of the main problems of the area. Moreover, 1000 words is enough to bludgeon but not enough to present multiple reliable sources with quotations. Shouldn't you be encouraging proper discussion rather than restricting it? Can you at least specify that citations and quotations of reliable sources do not count in the limit? Otherwise your proposal is going to be a net negative. Zerotalk 01:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

There is a broad array of disruptive editing, POV pushing, long term edit wars, bludgeoning, incivility, and it all basically comes down to WP:BATTLEGROUND. I've done my best to take care of all of the obvious cases that won't have to set aside a dozen hours of time to deal with, but much of the behavior is by editors with numerous prior warnings and sanctions but that topic banning, interaction banning, and blocking is not a simple matter. Most AE reports in the topic area involve behavior that is widespread among many parties, and picking out a single party for sanctioning and allowing other editors to continue the behavior isn't how enforcement should be working.
If Arbcom does wish to avoid a full case or "punt", as Barkeep puts it, there are a couple actions they can take to help out in the interim.
  • As a sanction across the topic area, or added to the standard set of CTOP enforcement mechanisms available to administrators on a per editor or per discussion sanction, a 500 word limit in any discussion under 5000 words, and a 1000 word or 10% of the discussion limit, whichever is lower, on discussions over 5000 words. This should be done immediately, even if a case is accepted.
  • Any appeals of sanctions by editors previously warned or sanctioned in ARBPIA should be handled by Arbcom to take pressure off individual administrators. Arbcom discussions have clerks to handle word limits, aspersions, and other disruptive editing. Arbcom can simply vote on if the sanction was a reasonable exercise of administrator discretion. This would hopefully cut down significantly on 0.3 tomats discussions at appeals, and put those decisions in the hands of the people the community elected to make them. (Hat tip to Red-tailed hawk, who came up with this.)

As for a party list, anyone who has made, been the subject of, or commented at any ARBPIA AE report since October 2023. The problem is widespread, and I think that is probably the most efficient way to generate a party list. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich, that part of BANPOL is just quoting Arbitration procedure, it can be changed by Arbcom. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ToBeFree, the tldr is the original complaint was more or less about tag team edit warring, looking into it I saw that it was, in my view, broadly similar to much of the behavior widespread in the topic area, and wasn't terribly interested in making one-off sanctions. It's incredibly widespread, as well as other disruptive behavior, and AE isn't the place to address topic-wide issues. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, simple cases of misbehavior of newish accounts are fairly easily handled, as I think my ~80 AE sanctions this year show. The issue arises when we're asked to look into tag-team or long-term edit warring, as we were in this case, and even cursory investigation shows that a large number of editors are involved. You can't have edit warring or tag teaming with just one party or one side. AE is not equipped to handle, or at least they're is no appetite to handle, multiple long-term edit wars involving large numbers of editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe this idea is wild, but how about anyone named in someone's evidence becomes a party? This isn't a court of law, and being a party doesn't mean there has to be findings or sanctions. Add that if you go over the standard word/diff limits you become a party and Bob's your uncle. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, if you're trying to avoid a case, something like Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3#Administrators encouraged to let us know what the committee wants done would be helpful.
Motion 3 is interesting, but it has to be clear if it is or is not a sanction, and if it should be applied to all regulars, or just over-engaged regulars.
I think there's already an enforced BRD sanction, but it only applies to the editor that first made the edit. This would be more effective in this topic, where the reverts are often between several editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep49, I mean any guidance at all. Absent a case I want to know what Arbcom wants to see for enforcement. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep49, we don't know what's going to pass yet, so we don't know that any tools are being added to our toolbox. I think a clear statement from Arbcom about the topic area would be handy if they're going to punt. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tryptofish, We've got a problem, apparently, with a bottomless well of newish accounts that make life difficult for good-faith editors, which is something that AE should be able to handle. You can see here that new(ish) accounts misbehaving are taken care of fairly promptly. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Motion 4 needs to define recent. There's already no policy that defines a revert which makes 1rr a pain. Let's not have any more vague rules to enforce. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon, right now administrators cannot unilaterally place word limits on editors or discussions. Imposing such limits let's editors plan out what they'd like to say and what they choose to respond to, rather than be cut off mid-discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:47, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, it looks like a punt. The couple additional tools will be handy, but it doesn't address the broad array of disruptive editing, POV pushing, long term edit wars, bludgeoning, incivility, and it all basically comes down to WP:BATTLEGROUND where much of the behavior is by editors with numerous prior warnings and sanctions but that topic banning, interaction banning, and blocking is not a simple matter. None of the new tools help with the case that we referred here, which falls under AE reports in the topic area involve behavior that is widespread among many parties, and picking out a single party for sanctioning and allowing other editors to continue the behavior isn't how enforcement should be working. So what we're really doing is just letting things continue as they are.
I appreciate what Eek is saying, but keep in mind that there are even fewer active admins at AE and we've already said we can't handle this at AE. When commentary like If you want to even pretend to give a shit about the things that matter here, like not making things up in articles, that would be great. and And oh of course I cant take off my blinders to see how one group of editors is so obviously editing in bad faith, that they are propagandizing in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia article. followed by There is zero evidence of battlegrounding on my part by an editor with years worth of warnings and a couple topic bans slides at AE with a finger wag it's pretty obvious that we're in the realm of shit no one wants to touch.(pinging Nableezy and Barkeep49 as I've mentioned their edits) Adding more tools isn't really going to work if no one wants to use the tools we have now, and even pinging the admins that issued a very final warning won't give feedback other than I don't disagree that it's casting aspersions. But is it battleground behavior worthy of a topic ban? I'm not sure it is, but I'm also not going to object to another admin deciding it is. (pinging Valereee)
So
  1. we still can't adequately investigate large and sprawling issues at AE
  2. there are very few admins doing any sort of AE work
  3. many of those doing that work are doing so intermittently
  4. no one wants to issue sanctions where there will be a shitshow
  5. any sanctions on a long-term editor will be a shitshow
  6. there are still more arbs than AE admins
  7. at least we can sanction new editors easily, I guess?
Anyway, I guess I'll see whoever is on the committee in a few months when it's even worse. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Arbcom can look at the totality of evidence when it comes to editor behavior, POV pushing, propagandizing, incivility, battleground editing, and all the rest and make a decision on what editors should and should not be editing in the topic area. AE is not suited to this purpose, and expecting individual admins to continue to deal with it alone isn't going to work. There are plenty of actions I could take if they wouldn't all involve hours of investigation to build the case, then further hours defending the action on appeal, along with taking the lumps that come with any such actions. Arbcom is uniquely positioned to share those particular shit sandwiches. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:11, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vanamonde93, I made a couple suggestions above. I think adding anyone who gives evidence or is named in evidence as a party would be fine. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Barkeep49

Re:L25: I didn't support moving this here because I was looking for an ArbCom only remedy as I felt we had whatever options we wanted on the table per the Contentious topic procedures A rough consensus of administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") may impose any restriction from the standard set and any other reasonable measures that are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project. (emphasis added) I supported coming here because I think AE is ill-suited to a multi-party sprawling request like this. I actually think האופה is the least important party here in most ways and if the thread had stayed constrained to them a rough consensus would have been found. Instead, the discussion ballooned to potential misconduct by multiple other editors. For me the editors whose conduct needs examining would be BilledMammal, Iskandar323, Nableezy, and Selfstudier and I think ArbCom should review, and hopefully endorse, the work SFR has been doing as an uninvolved administrator given the concerns at least one of the parties (Nableezy) has raised about that work. Additionally, I think Levivich has been promoting, in this and some other recent AE reports, claims of misconduct based on tagteaming/edit warring that I personally don't find convincing (even if the same conduct does show other misconduct I do find convincing, namely a battleground mentality) but which ArbCom is better positioned to examine both because it can do so comprehensively, rather than in a series of one-off AE requests, and because of the authority ArbCom has to interpret existing policy and guidelines, [and] recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I should add one thing. If this ArbCom can't do the review of editor conduct well, and given that this is the committee with the biggest issues with activity among arbs of any 15-member arbcom in at least a decade it may decide it doesn't have the capacity to do this well, I'd suggest it find a way to "punt" that decision, instead focusing on whether or not it agrees with Levivich's interpetation of tag-teaming/edit warring. I say this based on comments members of the 2019 committee (a 13-member committee which is the only one to have a bigger activity problem than this committee) have made around their inability to give PIA4 and Antisemitism the full attention they deserved. In the latter case this then blew up into a much bigger case (WP:HJP). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:09, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 your "magical incantation" comment confuses me. Where did SFR say it was confusing how to refer? I've raised the issue that the mechanics of referring need work, but I don't think AE admins need to be told to bold vote something in order to find consensus to refer. All 4 uninvolved admins - with 4 uninvolved admins being a lot of admins these days - agreed to refer, and all 4 were (as best as I can tell) clear about what each other thought as opinions evolved, so it's not like it was a puzzle what was happening to the uninvolved admins and since other commenters gave feedback on whether or not to refer I don't think it was a puzzle to anyone else either. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 so you're saying the answer I gave is incorrect? If so mark me as surprised but glad for your clarification. I will eagerly await to see if a rough consensus of other arbitrators agree with you and presuming they do adjust my actions accordingly. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 thanks for that clarification. I want to understand this second parth. Am I correct that you're saying that if the 4 uninvolved administrators had all bolded refer to Arbcom no further action would have been needed as ArbCom (arbs/clerks) would do the rest of the steps? If so that is definitely easier than the answer I gave (close with a rough consensus to refer by an uninvolved admin, uninvolved admin files a case request here, and notifies all interested editors) and so I will happily take advantage of it going forward. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:34, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 does what I wrote above accurately summarize your thinking? I want to make sure to know whether to adjust my actions for any future potential referrals. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Z1720. Sounds like your reading is the same as what I had previously thought. So then I'm still confused about what your initial comment was suggesting - there was never any confusion (that I could see) among the uninvolved admins about what the rough consensus was at a given moment (even if I was asking for some time for a bit to see if we could avoid this referral). Barkeep49 (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Levivich's statement: even beyond what SFR pointed out (BANPOL is quoting Arbitration Procedures), I think Levivich operates under a fundamental misconception about AE. Levivich seems to view AE as a community forum, where as I feel it is, as the name of Arbitration Enforcment suggests an Arbitration Committee forum. Further, the sanctions being handed out are being done under Arbitration Committee authority, not community authority. As such under the Arbitration and Consensus policies, the Committee can do what it feels best including mandating that all appeals in this topic area are heard by it rather than AE.
As to the substance of the SFR's suggestions, I'm not sure the committee wants to hear all appeals, but if it thinks SFR's idea is a good one I would suggest it limit itself to either or both of: appeals of recent sanctions (<3 or <6 months) and appeals stemming from an AE report (regardless of whether it is actioned by an inidivudal administrator or a rough consensus). I think giving uninvolved administrators the ability to use the tools available in Iranian politics to moderate discussions (not just RfCs) may or may not work, but would feel like something that could potentially be productive to stem issues without doing a full case and thus is perhaps worth trying. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@‌Nishidani: the Arbitation Committee will decide who the parties are. So it might be RTH's list, it might be a smaller group of that, or it could be part of that and others not included there. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I agree with the observations made by both Trypto and Nableezy that the "sides" here don't neatly align on pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian. Beyond the nuances they both have offered, I have seen a definite "established/multi-topic interested Wikipedian" vs "less-established more and/or more singularly focused Wikipedian" divide (for instance SFR has pointed out that Levivich's definition of tag-teaming could apply to some of former group but is only being applied against the latter group). This complexity is why I repeat my concern about ArbCom accepting a case unless it feels it truly has the capacity/ability to do it just because a lot of people (me included) are saying the status quo isn't working. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ToBeFree: I think the fact that the thread sprawled in the way it did despite the absence of האופה is exactly why the referral is here. There became so many other editors conduct to consider - not just in tag teaming but in the AE thread itself - that it became beyond what AE can handle well in its format. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) I want to make sure that ArbCom is aware of the highly related AN thread about RTH's INVOLVEMENT in this topic area. 2) To the extent that Levivich's version of what happened at AE is true, I don't think that argues against a case; it supports the idea that thetopic area needs to be examined, not just having a single complaint against a now inactive editor resolved. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One more note: if ArbCom does decide to just adjudicate the AE report for האופה it should also adjudicate Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#PeleYoetz which was closed as moot after this ARCA referral. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:02, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Selfstudier: I agree that If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now is true. If no one else other than Levivich had replied, some quorum of admin would have been able to reach consensus on האופה. The fact that the replies that actually happened split the focus in a way that AE is ill-equipped to handle is why I ultimately (if reluctantly) agreed we should refer the case here. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich I absolutely think you should be able to present evidence about admin conduct in this topic area. Knowing the concerns you and some others had is why I included SFR in my list of potential parties. And I think it's reasonable to say something like "after that initial post by SFR there was no choice but for a lot of other people to reply which is why that thread sprawled and PeleYoetz" didn't. But I stand by my agreeing with Selfstudier that If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now. Selfstudier and I draw different conclusions about that statement we agree on and the Arbs can decide which conclusion they agree with as it's ultimately up to them. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mithcell: I think there are in the AE thread referring this here allegations that a particular editor is behaving tendentiously, namely BilledMammal, Nableezy, and Selfstudier (and maybe also Levivich?). I think some of these allegations are stronger than others but those allegations are 100% part of why this case was referred to you. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can appreciate and support Trypto's scope, though I'd suggest that a narrower party list is appropriate. I would also note that, today, we've had an editor present evidence right here about the topic area and multiple others accuse that editor of lying about the evidence. This suggests three possibilities to me: the editor made up/manipulated evidence, the people accusing that editor of lying are casting personal attacks, or there is such bad faith among topic area editors that honest mistakes/normal editorial choices while summarizing information is seen as being done with malevolent intent. In theory ArbCom is best positioned to figure out which of these things is true in this and several other similar accusations. And if ArbCom decides they can't (or don't have capacity to stay on top of this kind of conduct during a case), I hope they consider an intermediary step until ArbCom would have the capacity to do this. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Trypto: I think determining who should be party to an ArbCom case based on who happened to show up to an AE thread isn't the right way to determine a party list. The party list I gave might be too small but equally discouraging participation at AE because you might become party to a case when there is no accusation you've done anything wrong isn't going to help this topic area either, in my view. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani: I feel like you're saying we disagree (for the 2nd time here) but I don't think we do? If BilledMammal is presenting misleading evidence that is important to know and act on, especially if that evidence is intentionally misleading. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to bring to ArbCom's attention this message from Levivich to BilledMammal about this ongoing AE report. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:37, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think SFR's AA3 motion would be counter productive - a real "the beatings will continue until morale improves" type of thing. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:12, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish is any comment needed? They're giving new tools in response to the problems brought forward. Presumably the idea is that AE and individual admins start using those tools? Barkeep49 (talk) 00:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking is that if ArbCom feels like they have enough information to make a clear statement other than "we don't see a problem" they should just take action themselves rather than telling AE admin how to do it. I think the potential tools is a far better alternative to any statement they might pass in lieu of a case (as opposed to at the end of a case where I think such statements can be genuinely useful). Barkeep49 (talk) 01:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As ArbCom considers an appropriate response I'll throw out a potentially bad idea. Jeske's suggestion that there could be separate "topic area" and "editor conduct" cases and my suggestion of a delayed start to a case could be combined. So perhaps the topic area happens now and that could inform both tools (which might solve certain editor issues) and parties to a future editor conduct case. Either case could also allow for an examination of the pieces only arbcom can handle because of their offwiki nature (including what was oversighted during this request). That said some kind of motions along the lines of what Harry offers could be worth a try, as could a narrower case that Aoidh proposes (though I think the odds of success are slimmer here because disruption truly is more widespread than just the "power users" who show up at places like AE). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49 (and anyone else watching) I think at this point there are no bad ideas. Part of my rationale for proposing the motions was to see if they sparked any better ideas. Separate cases might be worth thinking more about. How would we structure a general case about the topic area to avoid it becoming a mud-slinging contest? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ArbCom commits to not sanctioning editor conduct in such a case (except for conduct during the case) would be my most serious suggestion. In more of a brainstorming mode, somehow structure evidence slightly differently (post themes - source manipulation, edit warrning, etc and allow submissions for that them), you could do summary style again (would not recommend given how much time it took but it is a way and I think it accomplished the goal you're concerned about here) I haven't reread the past split case @Jéské Couriano points out recently so there might be other ideas to glean from reading those (and reading what the arbcom at the time wrote about them privately). Barkeep49 (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Starship.paint: and @Sean.hoyland: one of the reasons I requested CU back was to help in this topic area. But the CU policy has a globally established floor (one which is monitored by the Ombuds who report directly to the Board of the WMF which underscores how seriously its taken). Unlike most global policies where enwiki has far stricter rules, for CU (and OS) I think we're already operating close to, if not at, the floor. So if there are articulable reasons that justify CU it can be done - as I did here - but "make it easier to run CU" isn't something ArbCom or even enwiki can decide. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since Harry has asked for feedback from AE admin, I'd say if the committee thinks it can do this well a case would be worthwhile. If for whatever reason the committee doesn't think that for, and I could think of 3 or 4 such reasons, we're better off trying the motions for now. Especially because one of them (the appeals to ArbCom) is likely to give arbs a better understanding of some of the issues and might make a future case more productive. Though I think many of those issues can be seen in this case request as well. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to Nableezy's comment following the close of an SPI by myself and Izno, I actually reach a different conclusion. This isn't the first time LTAs have been blamed for everything ill in a topic area. The last time I was such an instance was Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Proposed decision, which not coincidentally includes one of the LTAs active in this area as well. The devestating impact Icewhiz and other LTAs have had on editors and on the project cannot be stated often enough. Doing my part to combat that was a substantial reason I asked for CU back and it's why I invested most of the limited time I had for Wikipedia yesterday into this matter. I also think it important to note that I was only willing to say it's possilikely that the socks were Icewhiz; it wasn't worth my time to confirm it when I could, with much less time, say that they connected to each other and block them with basically the same result. In the context of a case perhaps it's worth ArbCom's time to do that deeper investigation. Beyond all that, I bring up the WWII case because I think the devastating impact of LTAs sometimes makes it harder to focus on non-LTA issues, such as in this incident (currently at AE). Given that we are now more than 2 months closer to the end of the year than when this was first filed I will renew my suggestion that ArbCom open the case and suspend it until sometime in mid-January. This would then let potential candidates know something that they will be facing and to act accordingly in making a decision (the net of which I suspect is an increased capacity for a case which would be a heavy lift). Absent that I think ArbCom should just close this down with the passed motions and see what happens next. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @HJ Mitchell: I'm kind of surprised by the this comment about the uninvolved administrators in this referral by you. How should we have handled this AE thread so that I (and others) can adjust our actions in the future? Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Barkeep49 it was not meant as a criticism of you or any other admin. I apologise profusely if it came across as such. My concern with the potential ARBPIA 5 was the limited remedies available that we haven't already tried for the topic area in general and its susceptibility to real-world events, whereas a request focused on a small number of editors and the conduct that happens in their orbit is something we can address (if we find that misconduct has occurred of course; I want to avoid the impression of a foregone conclusion). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Theleekycauldron

@L235: I agree with Barkeep that this should be a full case. But Red-tailed hawk is right on his list of parties – this is a sprawling case where basically all of the regulars in the topic area have worked together to create a hostile battleground that AE hasn't been able to resolve. Not because of a lack of authority, but because of the complexity of the case combined with the standard unblockables problem. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier: i think it's pretty clear looking at the chart that the number of new editors spiked because of the war (given that it spiked last october). i don't think you can claim from that chart alone what the impact of the regulars has been; it'd be ludicrous to say that the temperature in this area is lower than it was the day before the war began. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by PeleYoetz

Statement by TarnishedPath

I understand that the list of participants is everyone who was involved in a particular AE discussion or who was mentioned in that discussion. My editing in the topic area is limited, with a limited number of articles on my watchlist. I don't intend on following this closely. If my participation is desired at any point please ping me, presuming the case goes ahead. TarnishedPathtalk 22:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if anyone has seen this article at Jewish News Syndicate which states that "Blake Flayton, a vocal commentator on Jewish and Israeli issues, responded to the post, calling the changes “egregious” and urging someone with expertise to edit the page to reflect what he considers to be a more accurate portrayal". When we are faced with this sort of off-wiki canvassing is it any surprise that there's some level of disruption to the topic area? TarnishedPathtalk 13:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the motions (TarnishedPath)

To me it seems that Motion 3: Involved participants may have the effect of increasing the amount of off-wiki canvassing and use of socks that already occurs in this topic area. TarnishedPathtalk 03:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CaptainEek, I'd suggest that definition of "recent" is a long way from the community understanding and if implemented would give rise to increased edit warring both at the 1RR level and at the 3RR level. TarnishedPathtalk 11:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CaptainEek, I've seen editors brought before AE where part of the evidence involved reverts to other edits well over a 24 hours old. So from what I've seen the idea of recent is older than 24 hours. I don't have an answer on what I think should be a good threshold for what "recent" is, however I could foresee a lot of problems if it was defined as short as 24 hours. TarnishedPathtalk 00:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nishidani

I object to being hauled into this artificial mess (caused by an innovation in reading that defines all reverts as identical behaviourally irrespective of contexts, so if I revert an unfactual or unsourced piece of WP:OR, I immediately am, like the abusive, often new, editor, engaged in a revert war and, if the abusive editor persists, anyone else who restores the accurate text is tagteaming with me. Crazy). I have been repeatedly reported over the last year, and invariably the cases were dismissed. They were frivolous, but ‘there is no smoke without fire’ psychological atmosphere created by this repetitive questioning of my policy-adherence and good faith, indeed, precisely because AE rejected these piddling reports, the claim emerges that editors like me are ‘untouchable’ (Occam's razor. When a theory fails, those convinced of it invent another theory (Untouchables here) to account for why it was not accepted, etc.). The result here is a series of intemperate variations of a boilerplate meme chanted about the I/P area, which I have heard for a dozen years used of individual editors but now used of a group, first targeted by several off-wiki sites and now pushed as a reality which slipped past our monitoring for 20 years. And it is just an unsubstantiated opinion, esp. from editors I’ve almost never seen here, and, surprisingly seems to be getting some traction.

  • theleekycauldron this is a sprawling case where basically all of the regulars in the topic area have worked together to create a hostile battleground that AE hasn't been able to resolve
  • Tryptofish the editing environment disturbingly toxic, . . it felt like a fairly large number of experienced editors, together, were acting in a way inconsistent with a CTOP subject.' (See this note)
  • AirshipJungleman29:a large number of experienced editors . . turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND than it needs to be, but also negatively affects the experiences and habits of newer editors who follow the combative, actively hostile methods of those they look up to.
  • Swatjester;The tendentiousness, bludgeoning, and sealioning behavior from these battleground editors makes it exhausting and frustrating for non-battleground editors to participate. In any event, I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute
  • Number 57: there is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Wikipedia to push their POV . . for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions
  • The Kip: This pivot was due to the absurd levels of incivility, condescension, POV-pushing, bludgeoning, edit-warring, hypocrisy, and virtually every other type of WP:BATTLEGROUND editing humanly possible, from a core group of editors that perennially show up to scream at each other in every discussion; there's a level of toxicity that just makes me want to ignore the area entirely. This BATTLEGROUND issue is only compounded by the fact that virtually all of the culprits are WP:UNBLOCKABLE . . - I openly endorse nuking the topic area's userbase via mass TBANs.
  • Zanahary: It’s a small group of editors making this topic area hell for editors and a headache (I’d imagine) for administrators. I used to involve myself heavily in this topic area, and it’s the only such area where I’ve witnessed personal attacks, bullying, glaring dishonesty and hypocrisy in defense of violation of WP policy.
  • Domeditrix there is a culture of bludgeoning, tag teaming and tendentious editing, particularly of the Righting Great Wrongs variety. , , , editors here incredibly experienced, incredibly knowledgeable of processes, , , enable(s) Wikilawyering on a scale that I've frankly not encountered anywhere else on Wikipedia in my history of making active edits. . topic area where, as @ABHammad observes, Wikipedia is out-of-step with a large number of the reliable sources that we rely on for other topics . . I find myself aligning with @The_Kip's suggestion of nuking the topic area with mass topic bans. This is a WP:BATTLEGROUND
  • Thebiguglyalien the entrenched editors . . . their behavior is the worst of any topic area on Wikipedia. Everyone here knows which users I'm talking about and which sides they fall on . . This will always be a contentious topic, but it is possible to prioritize the sources over your own beliefs when editing in contentious topics. The current regulars have forced out anyone who might be willing to do this. . .
  • xDanielx: the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers.
  • berchanhimez:I see the only solution being the indefinite removal (topic ban - not warning) of any and all experienced editors who have, even just once, turned the heat up.

Where is the empirical evidence for these outrageous spluttering caricatures of a very complex environment (The IP area is notorious for the huge academic industry of explanation that has grown up around it, and unless you read this material, and put aside using newspaper current events sourcing as the default RS, you are not going to grasp anything there for encyclopedic ends. Who would be so stupid, if their intention was to 'create a toxic battleground', spend decades reading hundreds of books and scholarly articles, when they could simply do what hundreds of SPA and socks do, rack up 500 edits and then, without losing time opening a book, and if caught out, sock, resock, and resock again, in order to sock the 'regular' editors with their opinions, and try to provoke them so they may garner evidence for destroying them at AE?). There is no evidence here, none, as far as I can see, but no doubt some will think, ‘ah, but they’ll find the missing proof for these claims when Arbcom gets to work’. And why should it work on such an outburst of unproven grievances? As I noted on my page, there is a very simple test to find evidence for this hypothesis of a conspiracy (against Israel, that is the tacit innuendo in those complaints above)/bullishly dominating control over IP articles by a 'pro-Palestinian' faction that has putatively consolidated itself as the power to reckon with in the area. Use your wiki tools and elicit confirmation of this bias by examining the list of 100 new IP articles created since 7 October (SFR's starting point). Of the hundreds of editors active over them, show that a handful of the 'regulars' has bludgeoned, intimated, harassed, been uncivil across the board, and secured their 'pro-Pal POV'. If you can't then, all we have here is the appearance of blathering highly personalized grudges. Nishidani (talk) 10:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Billed Mammal. Re this set of diffs, They are not valid evidence for what you claim for a very simple linguistic reason. 'Severe bias' and 'bias' are not interchangeable, the adjectival qualifier makes all the difference. All newspapers have bias, like humans. 'Severe bias' in a newspaper/organization is what makes it unacceptable, as distinct from others.Nishidani (talk) 13:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@User:BilledMammal. I'm sorry, but language and grammar are merciless in these things (and the fact that such niceties are missed so often is one reason reading ANI/AE discussions is, certainly for me, so painful -I was in part permabanned because one admin could not understand irony, though everyone else saw the amicable comedy of my, to him alone, 'aggressively' 'uncivil'/abusive remark). You are simply wrong. If you have played lawn bowls, then grasping whether the ball you are drawing has a wide or narrow bias is fundamental to mastering the art. The whole point of RSN deliberations, and you engage in them often, is to distinguish between narrow and wide bias in newspapers. A narrow bias doesn't imperil the general reliability of a source: a wide bias can lead to deprecation. I guess now, having told you you are flat-out wrong, I have now produced a diff that can be cited in just one more WP:CIVIL suit to be filed against me in the future:):(Nishidani (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And Huldra thanks indeed for that link I'd never seen this data before, because I don't know how to consult files that log stuff on wiki.Nishidani (talk) 01:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Swatjester. Surely you shouldn't take exception to a somewhat playful implication you were a 'cat'. Your presence is very rare in the IP area and your remarks about sealioning and 'the usual suspects' (people like myself) might give the impression of a detached view by an experienced admin. Not quite true. You admitted 17 years ago that you used your admin tools to unblock an Israeli editor for a 3R infraction because, offline he contacted you and convinced you he was justified in breaking the rule. You didn't even check to see if his wild offline claims (presumably about me) were correct. ([31],[32], [33] [34], [35]). When I read your first post here I remembered that contretemps. I never reported it as a misuse of admin tools, and I never hold grudges. But I do remember things, and took your generalization as coming from someone 'involved' in the topic area. Nishidani (talk) 09:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Swatjester re my putative 'atrocious behavior within this topic area'. You don't have to believe me when I say I don't hold grudges. But I have by all accounts a good memory. If someone out of the blue, whom I haven't seen around for 17 years, implies that I am one of the 'usual suspects', a sealioning bludgeoner, then recalling the earlier episode where they abused their admin tools and damaged my bona fides is more than fair. I was a newbie at that time (that shows in my remarks there), and was almost driven off by the arbitrary punitive measures made against me. I don't hold grudges because I made no formal complaint, which might have damaged you, and I have almost never had recourse, on principle, to making ANI/AE reports to settle disputes by getting someone who disagrees with me banned, a practice that is of chronic here, one used against me with unusual frequency. I exercise care in the words I use. 'atrocious' per Merriam-Webster means 'extremely wicked, brutal, or cruel: barbaric.' You're entitled to that view of me as someone displaying exceptional brutality and cruelty on wikipedia. But you should quietly ask yourself, because I don't report insults, how that squares with the content evidence of my creation of 1,000 plus articles as varied as Kaifeng Jews, Gadubanud, Joseph's Tomb and Irvin Leigh Matus.Nishidani (talk) 16:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Swatjester That incident occurred 17 years ago, when I was new to wikipedia, and, faced with an inexplicable administrative punishment (technically) I made the inferences one can see. I wouldn't do that now. What you don't deny is the gravamen of those two incidents (a) you used your administrative tools to unblock a sanctioned Israeli user after he talked to you privately (invisibly, without even examining the relevant pages where he broke 3R to verify his narrative) and (b) denied my own unblock request when, given the circumstances, you should have stayed out of this and left the decision to any other admin who was uninvolved. I gave all the relevant links, to allow editors to draw their own conclusions. Archaeologists of wiki disputes can judge for themselves. Nishidani (talk) 19:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Sean.hoyland. Thanks Sean. That is precisely the kind of empirical data we desperately need to as a work basis to get out of the suggestive/insinuating/subjective gossip mode often prevailing on wiki when it deliberates on core issues like this.Nishidani (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@User:CaptainEek. You write:

The world's mostmost intractable problem continues to be our most intractable problem.

It is not an intractable problem on wikipedia, despite incessant rumour-mongering. It is, an enduring premise of mine, politically intractable, but not descriptively so, taking in both an Israel (semi-)official POV and the scholarship, to the end of achieving NPOV. To the contrary. We can draw on one of the richest WP:RS highbar resource bases existing, for the simple reason that:-

The Israel-Palestine issue has a strong claim to be the most closely studied conflict on earth. 'Voluminous' does not even begin to capture the sheer quantity of the material about it'.(Ian Black, Enemies and Neighbours: Arabs and Jews in Palestine and Israel, 1917-2017, Penguin UK. ISBN 978-0-241-00443-2 p.8 )

A very large number of positions assumed to be contentious here are not so in that scholarly literature, where a large consensus on the historical realities exists. These however are relentlessly challenged by editors who don't care much for the ivory tower, but care deeply about a country to which they feel a profound emotional attachment (again, understandably, but love of country is not coterminous with love of any one particular government and/or its worldviews). To respin the disputes that arise as an irremediable clash between nationalist POVs is nonsense, but that is the temptation here. And, if this goes to ARBPIA5, the outcome is predictable. There will be two parties identified (regulars and nationalists/socks), and a number from each will be sanctioned, for wikipedia must not give the impression, particularly under the pressures over the last year, of siding with one 'side' or t'other. And why have we got to this? Because an innonative reading, impeccably 'behaviouralist' now takes all reverts, regardless of the rationales, to be on the same footing, and any series of reverts by different editors, regardless of the talk page or the RS literature (the contexts), as evidence of mutual tag-teaming. of course, there will also be a further tightening of the screws on 'behaviour', since everything else is considered a 'content issue' where it is presumed there are a variety of POVs that are, in any case, not up to admins to read up on or make judgments about. Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yes, seconding Zero, I really would like to see a minimum of evidence that the place has deteriorated to the point of requiring executive re-examination. What evidence we have is that there has been a massive investment of editors, a great many new, creating and working hundreds of articles since Oct.7. Personal experience is risible as evidence, but it was hell for the first decade of my working here, and I don't think growing senility accounts for my impression that over the last several years much of that heat has been significantly lowered, thanks to ARBPIA3. The only change I have witnessed is the sharp rise in newly registered accounts that behave oddly - my list has over a score, since Oct.7. That issue was what Levivich tried to address, and his reports somehow got transformed into assertions that they weren't the problem, the 'regulars' were, all based on hearsay circulating for at least a decade, hearsay drummed up by new off-wiki attack sites with a clear nationalist brief to go for wiki's IP jugular.Nishidani (talk) 10:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep. Just out of curiosity, if Arbcom opens a case, who are the editors whose behaviour is to be examined. The list given by Red-tailed hawk, or is it larger? I say that because there is a massive imbalance in the people singled out, according to the usual perceptions of the IP area's POV-stand-off.Nishidani (talk) 21:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Jéské Couriano. As far as I can see, your statistics do not note a deterioration over time of editing in the IP area. They only indicate that roughly half of the cases brought there are IP related, and that AE has efficiently sanctioned a large number of the editors reported. I could make many other inferences but leave a proper analysis to those competent in these matters.Nishidani (talk) 19:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • BilledMammal BilledMammal I second Sean Hoyland’s remarks on your page. That is an excellent tabulation. I don't think it demonstrates anything of the sort, that 'pro-Pal' editors dominate the IP area. What it does show is that several editors you would include under that description devote more than half, or indeed in a few cases, most of their attention to the topic area. Greek studies are 'dominated' by people who've mastered the topic- That doesn't mean they are 'domineering' as the rumour-mill here is suggesting. Perhaps I'll have other observations later (here because I won't be participating in any Arbcome process)Nishidani (talk) 10:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nableezy. The instance you provide, of BilledMammal classifying you as a supporter of the term 'massacre' when you did no such thing, confirms my wariness about drawing any conclusions from broad statistical charts like that. In the example where you are said to push 'massacre' (which is a reasonable preference anyway), what was going on won't be evident to the birds-eye perspective. The name-change was pushed by an old throwaway account by a NoCal sock User:Izzy Borden subsequently blocked on 21 July 2023. His view was supported by a suspected Icewhiz sock, User:Seggallion (38,036 edits). Another successful sock tagteaming operation since they did manage to change the name before being caught out. I don't know if it is proper to call this misrepresentation 'lying'. It is nonetheless the kind of error which can easily insinuate itself when one is applying to a massive data field algorithms that have no feel for context. Note that Icewhiz/User:Seggallion is missing from BilledMammal's chart unaccountably., comfortably slipping through the tool net despite 38,036 edits. Nishidani (talk) 12:38, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This isn't some pleas for myself, but a note to explain something about why the widespread enmity against 'longterm editors' who, several seem to believe, should be TNT'd so that the area can be rebuilt effectively, is a simpleton fantasy that can do enormous damage if taken seriously. Apart from the accrued area familiarity with its vivacious theatre of new editors who sound like oldtimers, and the RS literature one acquires, there is a dimension of experience, of what Polanyi called tacit knowledge that is wiped out by such bulldozing. Let me illustrate. I had a note on my page posed by an unfamiliar editor, Annette Maon. My instincts told me immediately that there was some echo in that voice I recognized from the past, and a few moments of thought prompted me to associate it with a prior editor, highly intelligent and articulate, very pro-Israel, but utterly unfamiliar with any of the scholarship. The name that popped up was Monochrome Monitor, with whom I engaged in at considerable length around 2016. But I had no, and do not have, and don't care to have, any proof that this intuition might be correct and indicate a dual account. What I did was reply alluding to the possibility the editor had a prior account. Whatever the truth, that editor desisted from further editing IP articles. Go figure. But only deep editing experience will give one the kind of informal knowledge (often subjective, but not infrequently spot on, though never mentioned) that helps one to assess things, beyond the issue of RS etc. If my informal hunch had been true, what followed would never show up in a statistical analysis like BM's. Nishidani (talk) 16:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As to the requested 'pro-Pal POV', that is inane language. I could give a long essay on the roots of my general outlook, from family tales of Irish dispossession (the genocidal consequences of (a) Cromwell's conquest (b) and the effect of the the great famine on our emigration to Australia; to the unusual circumstances of having a father and mother each with a very odd, in a racist Australian world, tradition of sympathy for Zulus and aborigines; to having a Downie as our youngest sister, to an adolescent reading of Holocaust memoirs; to reading Tsepon Shakabpa's political history of Tibet at 17; to specializing academically in the concepts of nationalist exceptionalism -all underdog stories and therefore a sense that any judgment must be grounded in universalist principles or logic. When I started reading wiki IP articles, Palestinian history was absent from most (so I rewrote Hebron) - there was a bias to just an israeli narrative of Jewish traditions there. So 'pro-Pal' is risible. Indeed, if I have an intellectual challenge reflected in my work here, it is to read to the end of trying to grasp how the universalism of the haskalah could morph into the nationalism of modern Israel, In that sense, Palestinians are incidental, to a much broader point-of-view. And lastly, there was this vast disparity between the cusp of scholarship and mainstream reportage, and editors were basically drawing on the latter, which is no way to write anything encyclopedic.Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Billed Mammal.

looking at the top 20 editors at activity statistics, I believe that 13, collectively making 75,383 edits to the topic area since 2022, generally align with a pro-Palestinian position. I believe two, collectively making 5,832 edits, generally align with a pro-Israeli position.

Look at it from another set of angles. What is the proportion of Palestinian (zero) vs (pro-)Israeli/Jewish editors in the IP area, for example? Or what is the proportion of bias in the mainstream sources we almost invariable regard as core RS. E.g.'33,000 news articles from 1987-1993 and 2000-2005 the article shows that anti-Palestinian bias persisted disproportionately in the NYT during both periods and, in fact, worsened from the First Intifada to the Second.' (Holly M Jackson, New York Times distorts the Palestinian struggle: A case study of anti-Palestinian bias in US news coverage of the First and Second Palestinian Intifadas Media, War & Conflict Volume 17, Issue 1 pp. 116-135)
There is an extensive literature on this, not well covered in Media coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, and sometimes it may be quite disconcerting for those whose general information on the conflict comes from TV and mainstream newspapers to find that there is another, equally valid, perspective on events, and we must balance them for NPOV. There is absolutely no problem in finding massive coverage of events from a pro-Israeli perspective, but you have to frequently go to the scholarship to see the other side. And much of that scholarship comes from places like TAU and diaspora Jewish scholars (many also Zionist). 'Pro-Palestinian' implies 'anti-Israel' and that is why the term is totally unacceptable.Nishidani (talk) 21:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Arkon. Whatever the outcome, I think this lengthy exchange of views, explorations of so many standard terms used to (mis)characterize what goes on in the putatively 'toxic' IP area, has been very useful. Instead of the intrinsic litigiousness of standard AE/ANI reports, this has been a productive (?hmm many will think TLDR perhaps) exploration in civilised dialogue, yeah with the odd edge of irritation or annoyance showing through, but that's picayune compared to the overall tone, of issues that we've never had quite the time to look into. The emergence of toolkit algorithmically generated evidence also was refreshing, an attempt, even if in my view, not quite as successful as one would like, to get a minimal empirical handle on what often is read as mere opinionizing. The rules of etiquette and strict topic focus all too often hinder discussions of what is really on editors' mind, before a community and its arbiters, and it is all to the good that we have been afforded this opportunity.Nishidani (talk) 22:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The terms just means that the editor sympathizes with that side more than the other.

Good grief. What on earth has sympathizing with a 'side', presumably either collectively 'Israelis' or 'Palestinians' got to do with it. It's not a football match where people look on, 'rooting for' (that is extremely vulgar in Australia, where we say 'barrack') our side, and, in doing so, boo the other. Sympathy when partisan is tribal, and modernity teaches us that, though Hillel the Elder put it superbly in his dictum:'What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn,' which we have now in the form, 'Do not do unto others what you would not have them do to you.' To empathize along ethnic lines is to sap the very principle that underwrites this as a human virtue. So, what befell Jewish israelis in the kibbutzim, and the fate of the hostages elicits the same pain as one should feel at what befalls Palestinians. I admit that there are very strong drifts in representation which retribalize our principles, demanding that we showcase the tragedy of Israeli hostages, each with a photo and lifestory, while the parallel hostage-taking of Palestinians ( of the 9,170 arrested roughly 4000 are in administrative detention, i.e. held without trial, lawyers or due process, and probably without a skerrick of evidence like Khalida Jarrar) is systematically ignored. To state that, given the disparity, is not to espouse a pro-Palestinian perspective. It is simply to insist that our civilization in its laws and ethical principles commends our sympathies to go out to whoever suffers, regardless of the mean divisions of politics and ethnicity.Nishidani (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

today, we've had an editor present evidence right here about the topic area and multiple others accuse that editor of lying about the evidence.Barkeep49

Translation: Billed Mammal presented a very abstract set of charts, and multiple editors stated that BM was lying about the evidence in them.

Your three interpretations are (BM) lied, by falsifying the facts; (b) that multiple editors replied by making personal attacks; (c) that bad faith is so deep that honest mistakes/normal editorial choices in summarizing information are read between the lines as malevolent.

I find that extraordinary, a wild caricature and misreading of several distinct reactions to BM’s chart. Perhaps that simply because I can't remember reading anything in a very long thread that might support it. Other than Nableezy’s use of the term ‘lying/dishonest’ – for which he said he would produce evidence if asked by ARBCOM, who are the multiple editors dismissing BM’s evidence as mendacious, as opposed to unconvincing, unfalsifiable, ergo to be interpreted rather than taken for granted as proof, of whatever?

It would take a very long time to work one’s way through that chart. Tomorrow I will be travelling for a month, so I won't be participating in the Arbcom deliberations, if they take place. But in a quick check in the little time I've had, I found that BM’s conclusion that there were only 2 ‘pro-Israeli’ editors as opposed to 13 aligning with a ‘pro-Palestinian’ position hard to reconcile with evidence on his chart of which makes him the lowest (10%) IP contributor - though he is the most familiar name to me on that list, - when it includes User:Marokwitz (72%); User:Tombah (53% permabanned); User:Drsmoo (48%); User:Personisinsterest (49%); User:Dovidroth (39% banned from IP);User:Mistamystery (70%, low edit count);User:XDanielx (89%);User:Eladkarmel (43%), User:האופה (43% low edit count); User:רמרום (76%, low edit count); User:טבעת-זרם (89% low edit count); User:Wagtail66, low edit count; User:Kentucky Rain24 (56%, NoCal100 sock); User:The Mountain of Eden (low edit count); User:Afdshah (63%) low editaccount; User:Bolter21 (69%); User:Greyshark09 (57% few edits); User:Onlineone22 low edit count; User:Izzy Borden, sock); User:Seggallion (sock) , to mention a few of the names I mostly recognize as coming under that kind of general category.But then, this kind of analysis is way out of my field of competence.Nishidani (talk) 03:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@*Barkeep. I had the distinct impression the line I quoted summed up (a) BM giving empirical evidence and (b) being attacked for doing so by several editors. My impression was that BM answered my solicitation for such evidence (on another page), came up with his charts and was immediately thanked by sean.hoyland and myself. Then Hoyland, Zero, with a professional competence in these things, questioned aspects of the chart, or the inferences BM drew from them as did SashiRolls. This was absolutely normal, consensual discussion. The only blip was Nableezy being upset at the way BM's chart distorted his comments. BM and Nableezy often collaborate and at times get annoyed at each other, but that is not 'multiple editors' getting at BM. What has been suggested is that his particular modelling of the data produces the kind of result he'd be comfortable with, and that is a point very frequently made of papers in population genetics and other fields. Confirmation bias works everywhere, but in no way implies duplicity.* Best Nishidani (talk) 16:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Though the query was twice raised with Levivich, the suggestion of using the Bible re Zionism was not shouted down, as implied, with injury to the editor making that proposal. The technical point is that such primary resources should be, where necessary filtered through pertinent high quality RS on Zionism. It would also help if commentators remembered that Zionism was proposed by someone unfamiliar with Judaism and Hebrew, and that the pronounced secular cast of the foundational movement horrified a large majority of orthodox Jews at that time. The bible arguably had a greater impact on the antisemitic Arthur Balfour's enabling of Zionism that it did on the founding fathers. Part of the ongoing problems in this area is reading back into the past, which is another country, perceptions and notions that consolidated themselves only much later.Nishidani (talk) 21:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

should not feel that doing so means crossing a red line if they cite sources on a banned list, or that if they stray from say the Journal of Palestine Studies on matters relative to 1948 that they are going to be topic-banned

Whatever the arrangements of the outcome, could some admin kindly write a short page (ARBPIA5 for dummies) so that people like myself who know little of these endless policy finesses can get their distracted heads around the practical results, with a few hypothetical examples illustrating what not to do, other than what one was obliged to avoid doing earlier? Thanks Nishidani (talk) 12:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
p.s.@Coretheapple.Just noticed this. A bit of ballistically mocking caricature is perhaps needed to lighten up the strange gloominess here. Since when has that journal, or its august Israeli counterpart, Israel Studies, counted much much generally for editors here, despite the efforts of a handful of contributors who advocate the use of both?(there is by the way quite a lot of overlap in many of their respective articles)Nishidani (talk) 12:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ARBPIA5. This is a hunch based on the ARBPIA1 case that had me permabanned in, was it, 2009. This invites the temptation to lay a bet on probable outcomes. Mine is that an equal number from the shortlist, 2 for 2, will be sanctioned, to underline the impartiality of judgment regarding the 'regulars', and the relatively new or resurfaced accounts (of which I have a list of over 50 with the same POV, all active in the last few months in the IP area). The 'balance' will totally ignore the massive discrepancy in the numbers involved. I hope I'm wrong, but this is my instinctive response to CaptainEek's extraordinarily dramatic language in their most recent comment. And all this will occur with the best of good faith and will, because the real underlying issues cannot be addressed within wiki terms, so perfect conduct criteria will as usual rule supreme.Nishidani (talk) 22:01, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll clarify with an anecdote why I am sceptical about the expectation that a functional fix to these issues can by the nature of our traditional approach achieve anything but damage. It's one that comes to mind whenever I'm dragged into these huge timewasting exercises. I first heard my father, a well-loved city figure, conservative, impeccably attentive to good form on any occasion, erupt with an angry 'Ah, for fuck's sake!!!,' when I was 14. A car swerved from behind us, trundling along at a moderate speed, overpassed and cut back in ahead of us just before the intersection of Burke Rd and Whitehorse Rd in Hawthorn. He had to brake hard to avoid a collision with the red-haired lout. Admins are like traffic cops, but the rules would say, adopting this simile, that two people were at fault: the larriken in his careering path overtaking us to gain a few seconds' edge, and my father for his incivility, esp. serious because the outburst occurred in the presence of impressionable boys. Both would be fined, as if cause and effect had nothing to do with, at least, my father's response. Worse still, had the speeder in the incident stopped to complain to a cop that he'd been yelled at abusively, my father, in an analogous wikipedia scenario, would have been proven guilty on his own admission and, were he to say, 'but the other chap caused me to lose my temper', he would be told, 'that is a separate issue. And you may take it up by opening a case for sanctions against that driver, where his behaviour will be examined.'
All technical infractions are not only placed on a par, but considered as putting the flow of edits at dire peril. It's not the meticulous traffic code memorizer and applier who is at fault: the lack of commonsense discretion in reading what constitutes a systemic 'danger' to wikipedia is. The aim of an encyclopedia is to get jobs done (articles) in a worksite where swarms of gaming slackers and urgently hyperactive kibitzers vie with people who, beyond their own personal views, have been trained long at a tech school, and know how to fix things and if they don't they stop work and consult experts or go to a library, to mug up on the needed know-how, and then return to the job to apply the remedy). Though favours are not permitted I'd personally appreciate a slight delay at the ARBPIA5 Tyburn Tree proceedings until I totter over the 100,000 edits threshold, which should occur in little more than a month or so.(:-) Nishidani (talk) 09:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(a) Arbcom can look at the totality of evidence when it comes to editor behavior, POV pushing, propagandizing, incivility, battleground editing, and all the rest and make a decision on what editors should and should not be editing in the topic area. . . (b) There are plenty of actions I could take if they wouldn't all involve hours of investigation to build the case
SFR. Anyonw can appreciate the high seriousness and intense scruple exercised by your extremely close work in the IP area. But if Arbcom or any other institution outside of God can 'look at the totality of the evidence' to make judgments about the elements that follow, I'll be a monkey's uncle, if only because of all those involved you are looking at over 500,000 contributions. Almost everything boils down to the single 'incivility' issue. As for hours spent, yes, but remember, just one poor edit involving the inclusion of bad sourcing, then vigorously defended on the talk page, can lead other serious editors, all the scumbags deplored in so many frivolous and (no doubt unintendedly) offensive characterizations in this massive conversation, to several hours of background reading just to get the text secured in excellent sourcing. Any one does that, day in, day out, for years, only to be told that one has an infractive 'battle-ground' 'POV-pushing' 'propagandizing' attitude. And I'm not speaking for myself here. The evidence mill here takes no account of the vast evidence about how 'regular' editors go to great lengths with huge expenditures in personal time to master the literature. All that is looked at is the niceties of their interactions with a mother-lode of new editors who show no such commitment, but an enormous earnestness.Nishidani (talk) 16:17, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DMH223344

Can someone explain to me what this is all about? Specifically, how is this AE related to the previously closed one? And what am I being asked to do here?

Statement by M.Bitton

Statement by Buidhe

I really don't want to be involved in this business, but while there is a lot of suboptimal behavior in this topic area, it amazes me some of what can be described as an "edit war" or sanctionable conduct. If these standards were enforced across the board to all editors regardless of their content contributions and all topic areas, I'm quite convinced that there would not be much of an encyclopedia. I realize that Arbcom tries to clinically separate content and conduct, but IMO one should not lose sight of the goal of the entire project. And while productive, good faith editors can be driven away from contributing due to battleground behavior and general nastiness, it's also true that they can be driven away by excessive rules and (the fear of) overzealous ban-hammers. I do believe that editors who actually work on creating an encyclopedia should be distinguished from people who just show up to revert or argue on talk pages. (t · c) buidhe 01:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde

I saw several reports at AE that mentioned tag-teaming as a concern. I did not find anything actionable in the ones I investigated, but I agree with BK49 above that AE is less well-placed to investigate a sprawling multi-party dispute where the behavior of multiple editors may be of concern, than the behavior of a single editor. So I believe ARBCOM should look into this. In doing so, however, I encourage ARBCOM not to narrowly constrain which editors' behavior will be considered. AE is able to deal with the behavior of single editors. What ARBCOM needs to look at is whether the outcome of editors working together is actionably disruptive where any individual's actions in isolation may not be. I also encourage ARBCOM not to take a narrow view of what constitutes conduct. Mis-representing a source is, in my view, just as bad - and possibly worse for Wikipedia's long-term credibility - than any civility issue. It shouldn't be ignored just because it is easier to police language, though I am in no way suggesting that the expectations for collegial language be ignored. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:48, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • If this weren't very clear from my statement above, I don't think this ought to be handled by motion. The issues here aren't simple; they need to be disentangled with care. If civility and edit-warring were the only problems, we wouldn't need ARBCOM. We need an evidence phase, and for ARBCOM to dig into whether editors are editing within all the PAGs, not just the ones easy to assess. I also think it would be a mistake for ARBCOM to handle all the appeals. We shouldn't be spending the limited resource that is ARBCOM's time on appeals that aren't complicated. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fully endorse what Zero has to say about academic sourcing, but I disagree with the conclusion. There are editors here who are engaging constructively, and editors who aren't: and to determine who is in which category ARBCOM really needs to examine the content and the sourcing editors are discussing. There are previous cases - WP:ARBIRP and WP:ARBGWE come to mind - where ARBCOM needed to do something similar. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The motions being considered may provide useful administrative tools in some cases, but to my mind they do not touch the heart of the problem. We are at ARCA because the disputes are too involved for AE to separate good-faith content dispute from bad-faith editing. I don't see how we can reach any sort of resolution here without a thorough examination of the conduct of the principal parties. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Topic-wide enforced BRD is a bad idea. It is needed on some pages, and admins have the power to require it. Elsewhere, it just allows endless opportunities to stall constructive change. A hallmark of the ARBPIA disputes recently at AE is that editors were making reflexive reverts and not engaging substantively on talk pages. BRD cannot work when editors aren't discussing things in good faith. This is too much of a blunt instrument, and it does not get at the core issue brought here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Aoidh: and others: I think a case is the right choice and the only alternative to doing nothing. Contra Levivich, I see nothing wrong with the list of parties, as a case is an examination of conduct, not a presumption of sanctions. That said, there's a problem created by the procedural differences between AE and ARBCOM. Much of the disruption in this area comes from editors less active than the proposed parties. I can understand why you cannot lengthen the list of parties or sanction non-parties. But to avoid the undesirable outcome of sanctioning the regulars just because they are regulars, I suggest you need options to handle disruption by non-parties that may be identified in the evidence phase. One idea that occurs is explicitly empowering admins to act on conduct by non-parties that becomes evident during the case. We are theoretically empowered already, but it is likely that we will otherwise hold off on acting against anyone involved in this conflict during the case. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:25, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @ScottishFinnishRadish: ArbCom has in my experience avoided listing a lot of parties, and also has avoided adding parties after the evidence phase has begun. So we're in a bit of a Catch-22, wherein the evidence is needed to see which editors are involved, but once the evidence is provided, it is too late to add parties. I agree one possible solution would be to expand the list of parties after the evidence phase. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

I generally avoid editing in this topic area, and my involvement in it has been fairly minimal. But the one instance when I did get involved with it ([36]), led me to find the editing environment disturbingly toxic, and not due to some simple problem with a small number of easily identified editors. Rather, it felt like a fairly large number of experienced editors, together, were acting in a way inconsistent with a CTOP subject. That strikes me as something that AE is poorly equipped to deal with. And it fits exactly with the concept that ArbCom should accept cases where the community has tried, but been unsuccessful, to resolve. So I recommend that ArbCom accept this case, and do so with a large number of named parties. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Added after some other editors have kindly said that they agree with me; I don't know if they will agree with what follows.) ArbCom should know that the problems with "the usual suspects" that cannot be handled by AE generally do not fall along the expected POV fault-lines of Israeli versus Palestinian POVs, or antisemitism or Islamophobia. (I'm sure there are POV pushers like that, but they can be handled at AE.) If anything, there's a divide between different lines of Jewish thought, with the most problematic editors favoring WP:RS-compliant scholarly work by largely-Jewish academics, but doing so with a massive-scale disregard for the ArbCom principle of WP:BRIE, and some other editors (sometimes more crudely) finding such source material to be contrary to popular political opinion. In my experience, getting caught in the middle of that can be quite unpleasant. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About what ToBeFree said, I suspect that the information that would be made available to ArbCom via the case request page would look incredibly similar to what you already have here, so it would just be a bureaucratic waste of time to start over from scratch. And as for any aspersions that everyone should just be removed from the topic area, that's what the Evidence phase of a case is supposed to correct. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding to that: Although numerous editors are asking where the evidence is, for starting a full case with multiple parties, the correct answer is that evidence will be presented, and critically evaluated for whether it is valid or not, on the Evidence page of the case. ArbCom should make it clear that being listed as a named party is not a predetermination of guilt, something that perhaps will be more important here than in many other cases. You have multiple AE admins telling you that a full case with multiple parties is needed, and they have given you a reasonable list of potential parties (including admins who are well-positioned to give useful evidence). This is not the time to get stuck on quasi-legalistic procedural details. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:19, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Responding now to Harry Mitchell's comment, I'm worried that ArbCom is starting to over-think this. Focus on conduct, not on which sources are definitive. Have an Evidence page. Editors will either provide evidence of misconduct, or they won't, and ArbCom can tell the difference. You've got enough people telling you here that there are conduct problems that have overwhelmed AE that you can be confident that it won't just be a fishing expedition, but it would just result in ongoing disruption if ArbCom punts for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tryptofish This would be fine, but it doesn't do anything about the topic area in general, and I'm not convinced that AE can't handle that. Possibly not as drive-by allegations in a thread about another editor, but if a separate complaint is filed with clear evidence on each editor for admins to evaluate, I have confidence that credible complaints will result in action and vexatious ones will be rejected. But if admins would prefer to refer a complaint against a specific editor to ArbCom, I'd be happy to hear that case. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm trying to convince ArbCom to do is about fixing the topic area in general. Among the multiple impasses in the discussion here on this request page is that AE admins are telling ArbCom that AE is not able to handle it, and you and maybe some other Arbs are saying the opposite. Handing the problem back to AE with an admonition to do it better is what will do nothing about the topic area. From my limited experience, bringing a case about one editor at a time to AE results in walls of text that include attempts to demonize the editor who first filed the AE report. After one such experience, I gave up on AE for this topic area, and I gave up on trying to edit in this topic area. (And I know better than to name names here on this request page, as opposed to on an eventual Evidence page.)
I agree with you that AE can handle stuff like sockfarms and newish accounts that POV-push.
I can appreciate that ArbCom must find it baffling that so many editors on this request page are asserting things about the real nature of the problem, in ways that contradict one another, and that cannot possibly all be true. If that means that ArbCom is having difficulty envisioning what such a sprawling case would consist of, and lead to, that reflects what a mess this is. But not knowing ahead of time what the outcome will be is a feature, not a bug, because obviously you shouldn't prejudge the case. Let the community give you evidence. And this is one case where you should not skip the workshop. Perhaps the evidence will end up surprising you. If so, again, that's a feature and not a bug.
I'm going to propose the case scope right here: "Ongoing disruption in the Israel-Palestine topic area, with a particular emphasis on factors that interfere with the ability of WP:AE to handle the topic area, and on ways to solve those impediments". Use Red-tailed Hawk's parties list, and make clear that, because it's a long list, being on the list is not a presumption of wrongdoing. Then do these three things:
  1. Focus on conduct.
  2. Focus on conduct.
  3. Focus on conduct.
I predict you'll end up finding that this has a lot less to do with POV than some editors are claiming. And you won't have to judge source material the way that it happened in the Polish Holocaust case. Personally, I expect to present some evidence in the form of:
  • "Brief quote from a source." ([link to source]). "What an editor put on the page." ([diff]).
(Although, in my case, it might not show what you expect now.) I'd suggest other editors, with more experience in the content area than I have, consider doing that, too. Arbs might want to click on those source links to check them for yourselves, but that's as far into source material as I expect you will need to go.
But the community expects ArbCom to solve the intractable problems that the community has failed to solve. ArbCom knows that this is one of them. To drop the ball on the basis that the request process wasn't good enough would be failing the community. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm gratified that Barkeep49 agrees with my idea about the scope, but I want to caution against narrowing the parties list too much. Barkeep49's suggestion definitely leaves out editors who need to be examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very skeptical that the proposed motions will have a positive effect on the topic area. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really think that ArbCom has an obligation to deal with these problems via full cases, and not simply motions. But if the difficulties of creating a named parties list are getting in the way of a single, large case, then the idea posed by several other editors, of having one case about the topic area and how it affects AE (but not getting ArbCom into reviewing source material!), followed by a second case focusing on editor conduct, might well be the most practical way to accomplish it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In response to the question about how to avoid making the topic-area case into a mudslinging contest, limit the named parties only to AE admins. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Perhaps I'm posting here too much, but ArbCom's near-silence creates a vacuum.) ArbCom, don't get distracted by outside publications claiming bias in our content. It's special pleading, and ArbCom shouldn't end up with another Polish Holocaust case. We've got a problem, apparently, with a bottomless well of newish accounts that make life difficult for good-faith editors, which is something that AE should be able to handle. And I believe strongly that we have a problem with experienced editors who make it too difficult for AE to do its job. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My reaction to Motion 5, establishing a full case, is that I hope ArbCom will indeed go that route. About the parties list, I think it would be very helpful to clarify further how, precisely, additional parties might be added. Where I'm coming from is that I, personally, feel that I can provide evidence about two editors, one of whom is on the proposed parties list, and one of whom isn't. I'm extremely disinclined to name names before the time comes for posting evidence on the Evidence page, because I don't want to subject myself to the predictable complaints about casting aspersions. I'm weighing how I might present evidence about the editor who is currently a potential named party, in such a way as to make it apparent that evidence could also be in scope for the editor who is not currently named, but I'm unsure about how well that would work. I can envision a bad scenario in which editors provide evidence in that way, following what we think is ArbCom's instruction to propose adding named parties, and then find themselves admonished for having, in good faith, presented evidence about editors who were not named parties. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate Primefac's recent comment about adding parties based on evidence that supports doing so, where the documented content parallels that of already-named parties. Perhaps that could work, if ArbCom will not bend to retaliatory demands to add the editor who posted the evidence as yet another named party. It also occurs to me that some of the most active AE admins should also be named parties, not because they are being scrutinized, but because they are particularly well-positioned to provide evidence and should have more generous word limits. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the hopes of moving this very slow discussion forwards towards a case, I'll say that there should, indeed, be some revision of the parties list, and, for those Arbs who are still unsure of what a full case could accomplish that motions would not, I believe that if ArbCom, after fully reviewing evidence, will remove some experienced editors from certain kinds of discussions, that will lead to improvements in the editing environment (and in AE's ability to handle complaints), in ways that the motions will not. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know that this page is for dialog between the community and ArbCom, and not between editors filing statements, but I feel the urge to react to what Selfstudier addressed to me, saying that I'm prejudging the case. The answer is that I'm not on ArbCom, so I don't get to judge the case at all, but I do hope to present evidence that will help ArbCom reach a good judgment. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About the rule on word count limits, I hope it's obvious to ArbCom that editors would be posting a lot less here, if ArbCom were to act in a more typical time frame. Nature abhors a vacuum. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you CaptainEek for confirming that you and the other two drafters, Aoidh and HJ Mitchell, are working on getting the case underway. I appreciate that very much. I want to remind the three of you that it would be very helpful to give guidance to the community about how (or whether) to recommend adding more named parties to the case, or presenting evidence about editors who are not yet named parties. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AirshipJungleman29

I echo the comments of Tryptofish, Vanamonde93 and SFR. The topic area features a large number of experienced editors who have, whether consciously or not, decided to ignore CTOP protocols. This not only has the effect of turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND than it needs to be, but also negatively affects the experiences and habits of newer editors who follow the combative, actively hostile methods of those they look up to. Editors of all sides appear to have an unspoken agreement that civility shouldn't really matter when discussing such controversial subject matter (e.g. nableezy's statement above). This is unacceptable. I strongly endorse implementing the actions outlined by SFR as immediate remedies. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nishidani, while I don't particularly appreciate being snidely labelled a pro-Israel complainer, I do appreciate an immediate example of "experienced editors . . turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND than it needs to be". So—on balance, notwithstanding its intention—I thank you for your statement! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aquillion

I do urge ArbCom to particularly investigate the accusations of misrepresenting sources (an extremely serious one that takes time and effort to get to the bottom of) and of people taking inconsistent policy positions (a key component mentioned in WP:CIVILPOV, which is rarely enforced) as well as the battleground / aspersion / WP:AGF issues mentioned above. The edit-warring is important and is easy to see (hence why so many cases focus on it), but if that was enough to resolve this then we wouldn't be at ArbCom. The root cause is battleground mentalities and civil POV-pushing; misrepresenting sources and taking inconsistent policy positions point much more directly to that problem. (And, of course, I also urge people to present evidence to those things in the evidence phase, if it gets to that point, because ArbCom needs that - my past experience with cases like these is that both editors and ArbCom tend to focus on the "easy" aspects of WP:CIVIL and WP:EW, ignoring the underlying causes or more complex aspects.) --Aquillion (talk) 18:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also want to second Loki's statement below that much of the problem is drive-by new editors or SPAs with few edits elsewhere - a lot of the other comments here have basically said "this is all about a few bad editors"; I don't think that's correct. In topic areas like this, where the disputes here reflect serious real-world divides, new / inexperienced users and blatant new SPAs are going to constantly flow into the topic area and require experienced editors who are willing to take the time and effort to keep an eye on a vast number of pages in order to maintain some semblance of balance or even just basic compliance with policy. We aren't going to solve the underlying A/I conflict on Wikipedia; the topic area is always going to be fraught. And the simple fact is that distinguishing between an experienced editor who eg. frequently reverts in a particular way because they're doing the necessary gruntwork of dealing with an endless tide of SPAs trying to blatantly add a particular bias an article, and an experienced editor who is performing WP:CIVILPOV-pushing themselves while WP:BITE-ing innocent new editors, is often not obvious. Part of the reason an ArbCom case is needed is because the community and AE aren't equipped for that; but this also means it's important to approach the case with an eye towards the drive-by / SPA problem, at least as context for the behavior of parties to the case, and not just "who are the bad people we can make go away in order to solve this." --Aquillion (talk) 18:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Going over the motions, I don't think that any of them are likely to help. The core problems in the topic area are sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, and canvassing, coupled with the scale and intensity of the underlying real-world conflict, which inevitably spills over into editing and leads to knock-on WP:CIVILPOV / WP:BATTLEGROUND issues; all of these are difficult to resolve in a single sweeping motion. But several of these are likely to actually make problems worse, not better.

  • Motion 1, Appeals only to ArbCom doesn't really address any of the core problems; it isn't like revolving-door appeals are the problem here.
  • Motion 2a / 2b, Word limits: Bludgeoning is certainly happening, so this is the one suggestion here that is at least aimed at what I'd consider the real problem... but it would probably be better to treat it as a WP:ROPE situation and just remove the people who are unable to stop themselves. Bludgeoning is a symptom of the real problem, not its cause. Also, it would make editing in the topic area even more stressful because you'd have to constantly keep track of your word count.
  • Motion 3, Involved participants: This would reward sockpuppetry and canvassing, and silence contributions from editors with the most knowledge of the topic and the underlying dispute. Beyond that it's just not practical - would every editor only get to weigh in on one RFC in the topic, ever, after which they're involved and can never contribute to another? How would this even work? We'd rapidly run out of people willing to respond to RFCs (non-sockpuppets, anyway. I guess it could serve as a honey-trap for them but it's not worth it.)
  • Motion 4, Enforced BRD: This would make editing in the topic area a glacial slog; it would also add a massive first-mover advantage to anyone who creates an article. Because the R in BRD can't be used to "uncreate" an article, someone could create a highly-biased article and then force extensive discussions on any attempt to balance it. And because events are moving quickly in the real world, this is a serious concern; there's constant new events that justify new articles, which often require fixes but which can't necessarily be summarily deleted. Beyond that, it's, again, not really aimed at the real problems here - revert-wars aren't the main issue (they're one of the things admins can easily spot and deal with.) I'm not a fan of enforced BRD in the best of times, but to the extent that it does work, it only really functions when there's a solid status quo and no need to update it quickly, which isn't the case during an active fast-moving real-world conflict like this one.

What we need are in-depth looks at individual editor conduct in order to catch sockpuppets / meatpuppets, identify canvassing, and remove civil POV-pushers. These things are hard, which is why they haven't been done yet, but sweeping from-above solutions aren't a substitute. --Aquillion (talk) 05:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Swatjester

Tryptofish's experience here echoes mine. The tendentiousness, bludgeoning, and sealioning behavior from these battleground editors makes it exhausting and frustrating for non-battleground editors to participate. In any event, I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute, in contrast to the uninvolved parties saying, essentially: "It's you: you're the problem." I think that's rather telling. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 18:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Huldra: While my user page has remained remarkably free of vandalism I have received death threats and threats to my family, specifically targeting me as a Jew, through Wikipedia that were so bad that WMF Legal had to be involved at one point. I'm not the cat you're looking for; please keep me out of your metaphors, thanks. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 03:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Huldra: I appreciate the words written in support. With regard to the question of whether I think the "not so Israeli" side receives more threats than the Israeli side -- I don't know. I'm not sure how I *could* know as I wouldn't be privy to threats received in private much like you weren't privy to the ones I received. I'm also not sure why it matters -- neither side should be receiving death threats, but nobody "wins" by being more oppressed. As to my lack of having been targeted for on-wiki vandalism by one side or the other, as Nishidani pointed out, my "presence is very rare in the IP area" so not only would I have less visibility over other people receiving threats, logically I'm not going to be the target of abuse from that area either. And, I was considerably less active in editing from 2012 until 2023, which certainly bears on why my User Talk was not subjected to those kinds of attacks. Thus I believe I'm just not a good fit for your metaphor. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 23:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nishidani: thank you for bringing up an example that I did not remember from nearly two decades ago of your atrocious behavior within this topic area, in which you became so infuriated that I denied an unblock request from you, that you went on a rant about how my military service in Iraq (miscategorizing me as a Marine, as well as not realizing I'd been out of the military for over a year at that point) categorically disqualified from participating in the Israel topic area; made the same argument about a British military admin; and then proceeded to imply that we were tag-team coordinating while admitting that you had no evidence whatsoever to make that aspersion and that it was unlikely to be true anyway, before accusing me of "partisan" and "political" motivations, while repeatedly threatening to quit the project if you didn't get your way. Are you *really* sure this is the example you want to bring up? You're making my point about "It's you: you're the problem" quite well for me. But sure, you never hold grudges... except for the one you've apparently held for 17 years. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 16:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to the proposed motions: I don't have confidence that they're going to fix the problem, but they're all pretty harmless so why not try them..... except Motion #3. That one seems quite dangerous to me, actually when read in conjunction with Motion #1. It creates the risk that an administrator who is not themselves involved, but who wishes to push their finger on the scale of the matter, could simply "knock out" any other admin (or non-admin editor) as being "involved" with the only recourse being (if Motion #1 also goes through) an Arbitration appeal. That seems highly unlikely to reduce the amount of heat on the topic, and I don't see how it leads to the goal of encouraging outside voices. If there's a concern over specific administrators taking actions while being involved, I think that should be raised individually on a case-by-case basis. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 00:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That said, Jeske+Barkeep's suggestion of splitting this into topic area and editor conduct halves I think merits further examination. Depending on how those two groupings relate to each other (e.g. if findings from the topic area can inform whether editor conduct issues exist), that could be a clean way of approaching at least part of this. It's at least the most workable suggestion I've seen thusfar. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 21:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Number 57

I edit around the edge of this topic area, focussing on Israeli politics and civil society, and have had the misfortune over the years to have ended up in disputes with editors pushing both anti-Israel and pro-Israel POV on articles where our paths corss. I very much welcome the suggestion that long-term tag-teaming, POV pushing and the ineffectiveness of current tools to stop this should be looked at. From my nearly 20 years' experience, the main issue has always been that there is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Wikipedia to push their POV – anyone can look at their contribution histories and see that their contributions are primarily adding things that make their side look good/the other look bad and deleting information to the contrary; in discussions such as RMs, RfCs or AfDs, their stances are easily predicted based on their editing history. A further issue is that for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions (and in my view the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage). Number 57 19:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re LokiTheLiar's comment below that "a lot of the worst behavior is from new-ish users", I would say that is only partially correct. These users tend to be the worst in terms of edit warring and other more flagrant violations of Wikipedia rules. However, IMO the real issue here is the fact that the topic area is dominated by a relatively small number of long-term editors who rarely break rules such as 3RR etc, but (as said above) are purely here to push their POV and support other members of their group in doing so. They have been allowed to do this for years – the question is whether the community sees this as perfectly fine, or whether it wants to do something about it (which IO think can only be achieved by a mass handout of topic bans). Number 57 19:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A response to Bluethricecreamman's comments: NOTAVOTE (an essay, not a rule) is not really relevant; closes against the majority of views expressed only tend to occur when there is a clear right/wrong (e.g. alignment with a certain policy or guideline). In this topic area, most things are arguable, and therefore the number of attendees do swing discussion outcomes – while this isn't an issue as a one-off, when it is many discussions over many years, it is a problem.
Re my views on 30/500 – my concern is that it is a deterrent to new editors entering the topic sphere, which is one of the issues preventing an equalisation in the number of POV pushers on each side (as I've said above, I would rather they were all topic banned, but if Wikipedia is going to tolerate POV pushers in contentious topic areas, at least allow them to contribute in roughly equal numbers). I've been here nearly 20 years and the dominant personalities in this topic sphere have barely changed in the last ten. Number 57 20:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And re Nableezy's comment about me – disingenuous at best. For context, what I objected to was including the same paragraph of text about the legal status of Israeli settlements in the introduction of every single article on a settlement – my view was that everyone knows they are illegal and simply saying it is an Israeli settlement makes that clear. And for those who have been here long enough to remember, my RfA was disrupted by canvassing by pro-Israel editors who considered me to be a problem because I was doing things like removing articles on settlements from "in Israel" categories. Number 57 23:23, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nableezy, I had been calling people in the topic area POV pushers for years before the discussion you reference and my issues with you also started well before then as well. While I have been accused of bias, it has come from both sides, and that gives me reassurance that I must be doing something right. I was once even accused of being a friend of Nishidani, which I'm not sure either of us would agree is the case. Number 57 00:36, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For Huldra's information, unfortunately I have had numerous people wishing me death and other unpleasant things both on and off-wiki – most recently in June an IP left numerous edit summaries on articles saying I should be tortured, stabbed, beheaded, raped or "bullied to suicide". Number 57 00:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huldra, I don't think it's appropriate to get into an argument about who has suffered the most abuse, particularly using a single metric like talkpage redactions – the fact is that no-one should receive any level of abuse for editing Wikipedia. And also worth noting that I have also been impacted as a result of removing "in Israel" from Israeli settlements (when I removed them all from "in Israel" categories back in 2007). Number 57 23:57, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Kip

Not to sound repetitive, but I'll echo the comments of Tryptofish, AirshipJungleman29, and Swatjester. I dabbled in editing within the topic area some months back, but quickly opted to mostly stay away - since December or so, my related editing has only been in the Current Events portal/ITNC and various admin/arbitration noticeboards. This pivot was due to the absurd levels of incivility, condescension, POV-pushing, bludgeoning, edit-warring, hypocrisy, and virtually every other type of WP:BATTLEGROUND editing humanly possible, from a core group of editors that perennially show up to scream at each other in every discussion; there's a level of toxicity that just makes me want to ignore the area entirely. This BATTLEGROUND issue is only compounded by the fact that virtually all of the culprits are WP:UNBLOCKABLE - they wholly disregard WP policies and prior warnings/sanctions, as most ARBPIA sanctions for experienced editors have effectively amounted to slaps on the wrist. I'd also like to specifically emphasize the point made by Swatjester of I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute, as from both sides of the POV-war, there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the [pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian] POV-pushers everything would be fine," rather than any introspection on the absolutely toxic environment created by nearly all participants.

In short, I strongly endorse both an Arbcom case and SFR's suggested remedies. I will openly disclose that I openly endorse nuking the topic area's userbase via mass TBANs, as I don't think starting from scratch could make things any worse than they currently are - that said, I understand that's a rather draconian/heavy-handed solution. The Kip (contribs) 22:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • With regards to the core group/"usual suspects" claim, I'd also like to link this chart gathered by @Thebiguglyalien: some months ago for a different arb case. Some of the more active users noted on that chart are now TBANned, but it still serves as a solid chunk of data for the mass-scale POV-warring in the area. The Kip (contribs) 22:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd also like to say I politely disagree with Tryptofish's assessment of the main area of conflict; while that is a dispute in the area, and as they say, a particularly nasty one, I think the main issue is indeed the Israeli vs Palestinian POV-warring. While AE could in theory deal with that, in practice it's been reluctant to for one reason or another - many of the experienced editors in question often straddle a line of problematic behavior that AE has seemed unwilling to definitively bring down the hammer on (hence my WP:UNBLOCKABLE concerns mentioned above), and that Arbcom may be more open to conclusively dealing with. As a result of AE's apparent higher threshold needed for experienced editors, things like civil POV-pushing, bludgeoning, weaponization of process, less "blatant" incivility, and so on are difficult to definitively sanction - you have to badly cross multiple lines to receive anything more than a logged warning that is almost always disregarded by the receiver in the long run.
That's not even to mention the specific reasons why this case was primarily brought here (in my understanding), that being AE is mainly intended to be an A reporting B case forum. When the issue at hand is tag-teaming, multi-party edit warring, multi-party incivility, etc, AE's not too well-equipped to deal with a case where A and B want to report C, D, and E, except A and B have also been engaging in the reported behavior themselves, and F probably was too but wasn't brought to the case until later due to a variety of reasons. The Kip (contribs) 00:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LokiTheLiar the problem is those new-ish users are fairly easily dealt with via AE, if they haven't already violated ECR. On the contrary, AE has shown itself to be reluctant to heavily sanction any heavily-experienced, long-term editors - see how some of those named in this case pretty much receive only logged warnings and/or minor things such as revert restrictions for substantial incivility, abuse of AE process, edit-warring, etc that would've gotten a newer user swiftly blocked. The Kip (contribs) 18:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • After further reading of comments here from multiple users on either side of the POV-war they either deny exists or insist it's mainly/only the other side that's toxic, I'd like to reiterate:
from both sides of the POV-war, there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the [pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian] POV-pushers everything would be fine," rather than any introspection on the absolutely toxic environment created by nearly all participants.
WP:RGW, WP:BRIE, et al. This complete lack of introspection/acknowledgement that "hey, maybe I'm part of the problem too" is exactly why many in the area, if not all its experienced users, deserve sanctions. The Kip (contribs) 18:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also want to make something very clear, just so my position on the area doesn't get grouped in by one side with the other side of editors here and at large (which may already be happening):

  • Are there more pro-Palestinian problematic experienced editors in the area than pro-Israeli ones? Yeah, I kinda feel like that's an objective fact at this point - as berchanhimez or the aforementioned Swatjester have stated, just look at the number of experienced editors showing up to insist they're not the problem, everyone else is/"there is no war in Ba Sing Se"/their behavior is justified/etc.
  • Does that mean that the many problematic pro-Israeli experienced editors are any less of a contributor to the toxicity, policy violations, et al in this area, or that they deserve any lesser sanctions? Not at all (case in point) - I support coming down on them as hard as I do the former group, including more than a few editors in this very discussion whom I won't name. Hell, from the linked motion, part of the reasons one side is smaller in the first place is because many of the problematic users from that side already got themselves TBANned.

Some previous and later commenters seem to think that my idea of "nuking the topic area" means only mass-TBANning the problematic people from the aforementioned side with more editors (see there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the [pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian] POV-pushers everything would be fine yet again), thereby artificially enforcing "neutrality" by simply evening the numbers. That is not my view - mine is that all of the problematic editors be banned, POV be damned. The Kip (contribs) 23:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, with all due respect to @Sean.hoyland: - WP:SOCK will always be a problem in the area, nuke or not, but it's a problem that can be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI and sockpuppeteers having an almost comical tendency to accidentally out themselves. We shouldn't just put up with how much of a mess things currently are because there's the potential that it could get worse, and anyways, I disagree that the hypothetical "it could get really bad" is worse than the current reality of "it's a toxic disaster zone." The Kip (contribs) 23:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zanahary

It’s a small group of editors making this topic area hell for editors and a headache (I’d imagine) for administrators. I used to involve myself heavily in this topic area, and it’s the only such area where I’ve witnessed personal attacks, bullying, glaring dishonesty and hypocrisy in defense of violation of WP policy, and an apparent policy of assuming bad faith from anyone whom you believe you’ve sussed out to disagree with you go totally unpunished and be downright normalized—and it’s mostly coming from a handful of dominant editors. Something’s gotta give, and if that’s a rain of topic bans, then so be it. I see a few names listed that I believe do little more here than worsen the project. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 23:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ravpapa

Once an active editor in this topic area, I have for the last few years assiduously eschewed any involvement. But I would like, nonetheless to add this comment:

I think we are all looking at the wrong thing. We are discussing editor behavior, but we should be looking at the quality of the articles in the topic area. And, I think we can all agree, the articles are abysmal. They are bloated with polemics, they magnify ephemeral new items into international crises that change the course of history, they are often so full or quotes and counterquotes that they are practically unintelligible.

Will massive topic bans make the articles better? I doubt it. With the Middle East conflict, we have exceeded the limits of the possible with a cooperative open editing model, and we need to think of some other way to approach articles in this area. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SashiRolls

ArbCom should be aware that the table BilledMammal has offered as evidence above (Bludgeoning statistics) is deeply flawed. Efforts to encourage him to include a disclaimer noting that his "methodology" does not control for the presence of bludgeoning sockpuppets in discussions (for example) were rebuffed. As a single example, Kentucky Rain24 made about 48 comments on Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? enticing several editors into responding.

Prior to my comments on the talk page there was no methodology section. Now, BM has added some clarifications, but as a quick roll-over of that link shows, he is controlling what page visitors are aware of.

I very rarely edit in this topic area and only looked into this table due to past experience with Billed Mammal and Kentucky Rain24 (NoCal100) working in concert here. This is also why I learned that 18% of BilledMammal's edits to mainspace have been reverted, which might be worth looking into. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 11:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record... after further research I have been able to determine that it was the decision to set the cutoff at 20 comments rather than at 18 which kept Kentucky Rain24 (NoCal100) from appearing on BilledMammal's list. That said, and as others have already said on the talk page (or when it is was brought to ANI as an attack page), showing that people engaged in discussion, provided RS, debunked silly arguments, responded to sockpuppet provocation, etc. does not show that people "bludgeoned" anything. As the explanatory essay says: Participating fully isn't a bad thing. If there were any utility to a page which simply counts the number of times someone's signature appears on a page, I would ask him to rerun the data based on 18 comments in 4 discussions so that NoCal100 would appear in his list. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 02:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is worth noting that the data BilledMammal has assembled here show conclusively that known sockpuppets have made more changes to PIA than any single named user.
This was determined by calculating changes to PIA made by those Billed Mammal listed in red, which is a partial list of sockpuppets in that table. My mentioning this in the methodology section bothered BM, who immediately deleted the mention of these 15,802 changes as being a datum apparently unrelated to disruption in the topic area. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 12:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Domedtrix

I am relatively new to this topic area on Wikipedia, though I have read around the topic offline over a number of years.

I would like to echo the points of many editors above, that there is a culture of bludgeoning, tag teaming and tendentious editing, particularly of the Righting Great Wrongs variety. @BilledMammal illustrated this excellently here, though that is not to say the same behavious doesn't occur across more than the two editors singled out in that diff. Though I have seen tendentious editing multiple times, I am very reticent to call it out, in part because such accusations add more fuel to the fire.

What makes this topic particularly tricky to deal with, however, is not that editors in this space are typically new to the site (although as I know from editing in the WP:FOOTBALL space, any current event will draw large crowds), as is often the case when we see these types of issues. Instead, editors here are often incredibly experienced, incredibly knowledgeable of processes, and thus how to make a contentious change stick. This enables Wikilawyering on a scale that I've frankly not encountered anywhere else on Wikipedia in my history of making active edits, though I accept I am far below the median in this discussion by this metric. This, in combination with a format for resolving disputes that often seems to favour the most mobilised side, despite WP:VOTE expressly stating this shouldn't be a factor, has resulted in a topic area where, as @ABHammad observes, Wikipedia is out-of-step with a large number of the reliable sources that we rely on for other topics across Wikipedia. In my view, this amounts to an abuse of Wikipedia's voice for political ends.

The consensus process has broken down because too many experienced editors seem to have no interest in finding any consensus. I agree with @Zanahary that Badgering and Wikilawyering particularly scares off many that would like to approach the topic, so we're left with the same faces over and over again, and also the same problems. It is very rare in these interminable discussions that I see people give an iota. There is no end in sight, because it seems the desired state of the articles in the topic area from one (or each) 'side' of this conflict will likely not be content until 'perfection' is achieved.

We have been too slow to act here. It has been public knowledge for some time that Discord servers are being used to WP:CANVAS people with specific viewpoints. As this is done off-site, it is hard to know the scale of the impact, but that should not prevent the implementation of measures to guard against this risk.

The more I read in this topic area, the more disheartened I become by the state of our collective actions as editors, and the more I find myself aligning with @The_Kip's suggestion of nuking the topic area with mass topic bans. This is a WP:BATTLEGROUND, and it's hard to imagine whatever fills this void being worse than what is already here. As @Ravpapa stated, it's not like we're protecting much of value here - this process has resulted in articles of fairly poor quality, a result of incessent pointscoring within articles. --Domeditrix (talk) 11:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Number 57: A response to Bluethricecreamman's comments: NOTAVOTE (an essay, not a rule) is not really relevant; closes against the majority of views expressed only tend to occur when there is a clear right/wrong (e.g. alignment with a certain policy or guideline). In this topic area, most things are arguable, and therefore the number of attendees do swing discussion outcomes – while this isn't an issue as a one-off, when it is many discussions over many years, it is a problem.
History repeats itself. A contentious move is confirmed by @Amakuru:. The rationale? "from a rough count, I see around 22 !votes endorsing the closure and 15 saying to overturn. I also don't see any kind of slam-dunk argument in the overturn !votes". This is a repeating problem and is only leading to parties that are able to mobilise more effectively getting changes made. I'm not saying policy is being purposefully gamed here, but if it was, this is one way it might look. Tagging @Joe Roe: here as it would be rude not to, given I've mentioned one of their closes. For full disclosure, I opposed the original close. Domeditrix (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LokiTheLiar

As an occasional participant in this topic area, I'd like to second Zero's suggestion that mass topic bans are not likely to be useful because a lot of the worst behavior is from new-ish users. ArbCom already got a taste of this earlier this year when it banned a bunch of pro-Israel meatpuppets.

Speaking of which, I'd also like to encourage ArbCom that, when it looks at editor behavior, to actually look at the behavior of every individual involved and not assume "both sides are at fault" without evidence. Loki (talk) 16:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to say that my assessment of the behavior of established editors is notably less negative than many other people here. I basically agree with nableezy: it's inherently a contentious topic area and so disagreements are common and will always be common. It's also unsurprising that many editors take editorial lines that lean towards one side or the other of the conflict: editors aren't required to have no POV, only articles are. None of this is that surprising to me for editing in a contentious topic area and I don't think that any of this per se is a problem.
I do think it's a problem when editors edit war, or cross the bounds of civility, or bludgeon discussions, or bring your opponents to drama boards to try to get them removed from the topic area, or try to push a POV over what reliable sources support. And definitely some of that has been happening here, and I encourage ArbCom to look at the behavior of individual editors in this topic area. But I don't think this stuff coming from established editors is a systemic issue over and above the inherent fact that the Israel/Palestine conflict just is a contentious topic. It's fine to not want to edit in a contentious topic area but I don't think that a topic area being intimidating to edit in is by itself an issue. Loki (talk) 19:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thebiguglyalien

Given the pushback from regulars in this area, I'll add one more voice from someone who's only edited at the edge of the topic area and have felt dissuaded from contributing further. I can't say it better than Swatjester: "'It's you: you're the problem'". Whatever excuses the entrenched editors might have, their behavior is the worst of any topic area on Wikipedia. Everyone here knows which users I'm talking about and which sides they fall on, but we have to pretend we don't so as not to be accused of casting aspersions. I see an Arbcom case as the only way to turn this years-old "open secret" into something actionable.

The habit of always !voting in a way that benefits the same nation is a problem, and it becomes obvious when someone uses one reasoning to come to one conclusion but then uses the opposite reasoning when it's the other side up for discussion. This is commonly answered with the contradictory ideas that "they're the POV pushers, our side is just correct" and that "users are allowed to have their own POV", with the latter suggesting that it's okay to let POV dictate editing and !voting instead of following policies and sources. Call it battleground, tag-teaming, CPUSH, whatever you like, but in my opinion it should be a major focus when considering whether the editors in this area are here to build a neutral encyclopedia.

Contrary to what other statements here are arguing, I believe there are legitimate issues about editors who are only here to edit PIA. This is a strong indicator of WP:ACTIVIST/WP:SPA/WP:NOTHERE style editing, even when they have high edit counts or several years of experience. This will always be a contentious topic, but it is possible to prioritize the sources over your own beliefs when editing in contentious topics. The current regulars have forced out anyone who might be willing to do this.

  • I like ScottishFinnishRaddish's suggestion that everyone who participated in an ARBPIA AE discussion since last October be considered involved.
  • I agree with Ravpapa's points about low article quality, but these issues plague most current events articles (another area that could use cleanup, but it's not analogous to PIA).
  • BilledMammal's list does produce some of the most active editors, and while there's plausibly a strong correlation, it doesn't prove bludgeoning on its own.
  • Not only do I agree with The Kip and Zanahary that a significant number of topic bans should be on the table, but such bans are the bare minimum of what's necessary. At this point, topic bans aren't a drastic last resort. They're the first step of a slow, painful remedy.

Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In response to the link provided by Nableezy: a reminder that WikiProjects cannot enforce their local consensus on articles. Conclusions reached by a WikiProject are recognized as essays. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HJ Mitchell, replying more so to you because you've provided the strongest argument against my own and have convinced me to some degree. The most critical issue, in my opinion, is tag-teaming. Which regular editors in the area are working together to !vote lockstep, always in a way that favors the same cause? Especially when they apply different rationales depending on which side benefits (articles making Israel look bad must always be deleted and making Palestine look bad must always be kept, or vise versa, even if they have the same merits).

Your definition of "behaving tendentiously" would be a huge step in the right direction, but we'd need to flesh it out in a way that might be impossible. I've raised the issue at AE before, but no one could provide an example of what diffs are necessary to demonstrate this. Even though—if we all choose not to insult each other's intelligence—it's public knowledge who the most prominent tag-teamers are.

Regarding the academic "baseline", I don't believe there is one on most aspects. The controversy and disagreement are inherent to the subject area, including academia and history studies. The standard to declare something as a baseline fact should be overwhelming agreement in reliable sources. People who assert academic consensus on a subjective controversial topic are at best victims of confirmation bias and at worst maliciously misrepresenting. The people who insist that it's "correct vs incorrect" as opposed to "pro-Israel vs pro-Palestine" should be given additional scrutiny here.

Encouraging people to avoid the use of news media and primary reporting in articles on current events is something of a pet cause of mine in general (that I've elaborated upon in an essay), and such avoidance will almost always produce better results.

I see the sockpuppetry issue to be a red herring. That's not to say it's not a huge problem, but the current focus is established users, and there are factors that make this more urgent:

  • The opinions of less established accounts are taken less seriously in discussions relative to more experienced users (this probably should be the case, but that just means it's all the more important that experienced users are above reproach on POV issues).
  • ECR significantly increases the investment to create sockpuppets.
  • ECR makes it easy to see who's acting in bad faith via EC gaming.
  • Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked.
  • AE can't address coordinated action nearly as well as it can address individual problem users (which is why we're here).
  • Administrators don't give a second thought to blocking or tbanning newbies, while they often shrink away from sanctioning entrenched editors who do much worse much more often.
  • Any administrator with the resolve to take action (or even mention the possibility) is hounded and abused by the user's tag-team buddies.

To stretch the cat analogy that's been raised, we're trying to build a home for mice. We've known the dangers of cats for a long time. Keeping entrenched editors to protect us from socks and newbies is like keeping cats to protect the mice from kittens. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate that HJ Mitchell is doing what we elected him to do and trying to get solve the problem. With that said, I'm also not a fan of these proposals. They seem geared toward the "loud" disruption, when the accusations of "quiet" disruption are why it got referred to Arbcom. Just a few days ago, Arbcom reaffirmed Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Principles#Presumption of coordination. I would like to see a case in which the most frequent participants in the area are scrutinized, and that this will be proposed as a principle to guide any and all remedies. The repeated insistence from frequent participants that only newbies and socks are the problem has further convinced me that this is necessary. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by xDanielx

Number 57's point gets at the heart of the issue: the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers. This often leads to situations where there's an apparent consensus which goes against (the natural or customary interpretation of) our content policies. The result is passionate edit warring, with one side righteously enforcing consensus, and the other righteously enforcing content policies.

The Zionism edit war covered at AE is one example - there's an apparent consensus to state in wikivoice, in the first sentence, that Zionism is colonization. It's frankly very hard to see how such an unequivocal statement could comply with NPOV, given the long list of scholars who take issue with the characterization. But it's difficult to enforce policies against a majority, and four editors have been brought to AE for attempts to do, with another threatened.

Another example is Gaza genocide. If that isn't a WP:POVNAME, I don't know what is. Some editors argued that titles do not imply statements, effectively saying that POV names do not exist. Such arguments tend to be invoked selectively. The move received significant press ([37], [38], [39], [40], etc), damaging Wikipedia's credibility.

I don't think word count limits would help. A bright-line rule against bludgeoning might help avoid lengthy discussions filled with redundancies, but that isn't the core issue. Enforcing behavioral policies more rigorously might help attract a few more neutral editors. The real solution would be to warn or sanction editors who repeatedly promote unreasonable or inconsistent interpretations of content policies, but of course that's difficult since such policy matters aren't black and white. — xDanielx T/C\R 01:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion for Radical Change by Ravpapa

So long as we remain in the realm of editor behavioral change, we will get nowhere. What is required is structural change. In this topic area, we need to abandon the open consensual editing model that has been at the heart of Wikipedia since its inception. Here is what I propose that we do:

We recruit a committee of five to ten senior editors, who have never edited in the topic area, who have no identifiable bias, and who are equally unacceptable to both sides. Only members of this committee will be allowed to edit in the topic area.

The committee will be charged with reviewing the entire corpus of Middle East articles, and making any editorial and structural changes that they see fit, including:

  • deleting duplicate articles about the same topic, or merging articles closely related.
  • drastically trimming down articles of marginal importance that have become bloated with polemics.
  • rewriting main articles to present conflicting views in a concise and intelligible way.

The committee should look not only at individual articles, but at the corpus in its entirety, thinking creatively about the best way to present information. I give examples and suggest such structural changes in my essay User:Ravpapa/The Politicization of Wikipedia, which I wrote 15 years ago but is just as relevant today as then.

The committee will have the power to delete, merge and rename articles by consensus within their own group, without having to go through the regular article deletion. merge or rename processes. Anyone can, of course, comment on the talk page and make suggestions. But only the committee can actually edit. This proposal preserves the heart of the consensual editing model (though not strictly open), but eliminates the possibility for contentious editing.

It is a huge task. I am not volunteering. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:12, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Black Kite

A PIA5 case has the possibility to go completely FUBAR if it attempts to litigate the entirety of the topic area and regular editors in those areas. This is a stupidly contentious topic and I suspect if we looked at the complete records of every regular editor a well-meaning member of ArbCom could probably go all Portals on us and find a spurious reason to ban them. No, my idea would be to concentrate on the three areas which appear to causing the most issues at the moment.

  • Sub-5000-edit accounts which are basically SPAs on the PIA area, some of which will inevitably be socks but even if they're not are equally disruptive
  • Those attempting to weaponise AE by bringing multiple threads against ideological enemies
  • Those holding up progress by causing endless circular arguments on talk pages (I'm not going to say "bludgeoning" because people may look at BilledMammal's subpage which IMO has a wildly flawed methodology for assessing this). A lot of these people are, again, new-ish accounts.

Also, per Rosguill below. That particular shambles of an RfC is quite revealing. Black Kite (talk) 14:21, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rosguill

Based on my vantage point of having only really participated in I/P topics by way of RSN and AE discussions, I am perplexed by various assertions made in this clarification request. Reading through discussions like the recent ADL RfC, the recent Al-Jazeera RfC, a recent discussion of +972 a recent discussion of general Israeli sources, there is a consistent group of editors that repeatedly accuse a list of sources they have deemed to be "anti-Israel" while also defending-ad-bludgeon advocacy sources like the ADL and categorically defining Israeli news media as reliable. These discussions do not display the converse: there is no bloc of editors that rejects Israeli sources out of hand while categorically insisting that pro-Palestinian sources are reliable (for further evidence, see the recent Electronic Intifada RfC). We do occasionally see editors pop up who reject Israeli sources out of hand on talk pages (usually alongside US and potentially even European sources), but I don't see anyone named in this report that exhibits this behavior. Such editors are shown the door. signed, Rosguill talk 14:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huldra1

  • PROBLEM: the cat-herding admins cannot manage herding all the cats
  • Solution: slaughter all the cats (<- I love cats, and would never support this option!)
  • Problem solved
  • alternative solution: better cat-herders, or better cat-herding rules, are apparently not on the table, Huldra (talk) 18:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • And then we have cat-herders who likes to play as a cat, at times,
  • As for Number 57 view: "the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage" As an editor who has been "credited" by off-wiki web-sites and blogs with bringing about this rule, I can say: "credit where credit is due", namely with the more unhinged of Israels' supporters. It was their incessant rape- and murder- threats which brought about this policy. AFAIK, Number 57 has never been threatened with murder for editing wiki, or seeing his loved ones being raped (And I am happy -and relieved- he hasn't!), but I wish he would try to imagine how he would have felt.
  • As for Number 57 view: "is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Wikipedia to push their POV I could also easily name such a group – but it would prabably be a totally different group from the one (I guess) Number 57 has in mind,
  • I agree fully with Zero0000's asseccment: "There is a reason why many editors who enter the I/P area quickly decide that it is toxic and controlled by a cabal. It's because they come along armed with nothing except strong political opinions and a few newspaper articles, and don't like it when they meet experienced editors familiar with the vast academic literature. The small fraction of new editors who arrive with genuine knowledge of the topic have a much better time of it", I have met people with PhDs in the I/P-area, who knows far, far less about the history of the area, than some of my fellow wiki-editors.
  • As for Guerillero' wish for better cat-herding rules; I was thinking of something like: scratch another cat's face: 1 month's automatic topic-ban. Of course "scratch another cat's face" has to be minutely defined ;/, I didn' think I scratched a cat's face here, but that cat apparently disagreed! Huldra (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, some cats have been more attacked than most, [41], [42],[43],[44], while others have managed to get by with hardly a single scratch; [45] [46] (and no: that isn't because our editing is that bad: some of the very worst abuse I have suffered was after I removed that the Western Wall was "In Israel" (It isn't, according to the International community.) Huldra (talk) 22:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not to mention that some cats are the subject of off-wiki harassment and outing-attempts, while others are not. I cannot recall in all my years here that there has been a single attack-page aimed at the pro-Israeli editors, while there have been at least half a dozen attacking those editor not deemed pro-Israeli enough. And outing: apparently you will "help the state of Israel" if you make public my RN. Gosh, this cat had no idea that she was that important! Oh well, on the internet nobody knows you're a ......dog, Huldra (talk) 23:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:Number 57 and User:Swatjester say they have received death treaths, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, and I am very sorry they have done so, BUT: Do you deny that the threats against "the-not-so-pro-Israli"-editors is far greater than against the "pro-israeli" editors? After all, your talk-pages are blissfully clean of Wikipedia:RD2 and Wikipedia:RD3, after nearly 20 years each for both of you.
  • To re-iterate: some of the worst abuse I have recieved is over removing "in Israel" from places which have been occupied by Israel since 1967. This should have been totally uncontroversial, but apparently isn't. Likewise, I sometimes have to undo edits which place Arab cities in Israel in "Palestine"[47] others do so rutinely as well, [48][49]. All of these edits should have been uncontroversial. But I know that when I do the former (ie.removing "in Israel" from places which have been occupied by Israel since 1967) I can expect a tsunami of insults and threats, while when I do the latter (ie: placing Arab cities in Israel), I have *never* recieved any such reaction. Why this difference, I wonder?cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some comments after reading some of the other comment here:

  • User:Thebiguglyalien: "Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked" No, they are not. I am 100% sure that a Tombah-sock is active at present, but he is still unblocked. And Nocal works in the tech/computer-industry and knows every trick in the book to avoid detection.
" Keeping entrenched editors to protect us from socks and newbies is like keeping cats to protect the mice from kittens" I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
  • User:xDanielx: "...s Gaza genocide. If that isn't a WP:POVNAME, I don't know what is." That is the problem; you think you know "the Truth", but you obviously haven't read what genocide scholars say. And the scholars call it a genocide. I was once accused by a off-wiki website of "undermining the factual history of Israel on Wikipedia by creating false documentation that shows nearly 400 Arab villages were allegedly depopulated by Jews and Israel." Well, guess what: even Israeli scholars agreee that it was Jewish military groups/IDF that stood for the vast majority of the depopulation.
  • AFAIK: only pro-Israeli groups actively recruits wp-editors, they have done so for at least 15 years, they come to wp. with lots of opinions and zero knowledge of scholarly work. And are bitterly dissapointed when they cannot convince others.
  • User:Jehochman: I have given no such advice!!!!! Quite the opposite! Huldra (talk) 00:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Try clarifying the first few lines. I obviously got the wrong impression. Jehochman Talk 00:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Arkon

Seeing many comments that should be saved for the Arb case over the last few days. Is there some threshold that needs to be passed before this case is opened? Arkon (talk) 20:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing in on two weeks since I commented the above, sheesh. Arkon (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
lol. But not really. Arkon (talk) 05:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I almost forgot about the nothing being done here. pokes with stick Arkon (talk) 22:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shushugah

  • Enforcement in this area has been largely ineffective. The net result is a hostile/toxic environment. Remaining editors face a dilemma to either disengage (probably the healthier option) or furiously engage (also bringing the worst side of all parties involved). This does not mean someone who furiously engages is necessarily disruptive. We should be careful not to draw a false equivalence between the two. Especially when one side focuses on policy based arguments, namely summarizing inclusively pro Israeli and Palestinian sources while other sides are pushing for singular/nationalist narratives.
  • Cases are brought to ArbCom or ANI after obvious escalations, however what we need is stronger focus on preventive measures over enforcement after the fact.
  • On a practical note, reducing the ability of individual editors to dominate a conversation by instituting either a limit on word count or percentage, would allow more voices to sustainably opine with succint policy based arguments without having to compete for eyeball attention and save clerks more time when closing a discussion. More clerks would be motivated to join in too potentially.
  • The other thing that remains unacceptable is the presentation by some editors in this ArbCom request and general discussions as POV pushing by two sides, when the reality is it is POV pushing versus critically summarizing the state of different reliable sources. Having a much stricter enforcement of WP:SOAPBOX would clean up discussions.
  • These remedies would be easier to resolve than the (possible) allegations of tag-teaming and or gamification of Wikipedia which will continue to be contested and or repeatedly brought here ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 22:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    [@CaptainEek] On one hand, if this becomes PIA5, more people would have given commented (if they wished) and existing editors might have presented evidence differently. On the other hand, a lot of time is wasted going in circular questions about the correct forum, when many of the issues raised are the same. If it is possible to refactor/raise a prepared PIA5 instead of starting from scratch, I would support a separate venue. Everyone should have a fair chance to bring input, but for most editors (myself included) ARCA is incredibly confusing and bureaucratic. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 17:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by berchanhimez

I haven't wanted to comment here because I feel that others are saying what I would have to say. But I feel it needs to be stressed that some editors are continuing to blatantly ignore policies and guidelines even in this request which concerns such behaviors. To quote The whole point of RSN deliberations, and you engage in them often, is to distinguish between narrow and wide bias in newspapers. A narrow bias doesn't imperil the general reliability of a source: a wide bias can lead to deprecation. This flat out contradicts the applicable PAG pages of WP:BIASED and WP:NPOV § Bias in sources. However, Nishidani is correct that a wide bias can lead to deprecation - I am unsure if this has actually happened (and if it has whether it's happened in the Israel-Palestine subject area), but it only takes a quick look through contentious topics on RSN to see that editors are engaging in civil POV pushing (and sometimes uncivil) through attempting to deprecate sources that have a bias towards opinions they disagree with. This is but one example of the experienced editors blatantly admitting to ignoring PAGs when they disagree with the inevitable outcome of them.

This gets at the root cause of the issues in this (and likely other) contentious topics. Those editors with experience have "practice" in using PAGs in discussions - which is great as discussions should be based on how to apply our PAGs to specific disputes. However, their experience also means they are good at abusing PAGs to further their point of view and ensure Wikipedia reflects what they think is "right". To be clear, I am not denying that contentious topics are likely to have more sockpuppetry or newer editors in the topic areas than a "tame" subject would. That does not, however, justify cherrypicking PAGs that support one side, and ignoring arguments to the contrary - and it especially does not justify bludgeoning discussions so that the closer has no choice but to find those arguments "stronger" simply because people either tire out of refuting the claims, tire out of pointing out the failures of the arguments made, or are threatened with administrative action by those who know they can be quick to take complaints to friends who are administrators or boards like AE without threat to themselves no matter what they did to fan the flames. Funnily enough, when one of these editors has their conduct called out, the others tend to show up and bludgeon that discussion - through deflecting focus on to the editor making the report or those supporting it, through calling into questions the motives of editors who are simply trying to remove bad behavior from the topic area, and ultimately through derailing any chance that the behavior is addressed. That is why this is back at ArbCom after what, 4 prior cases? And of course, many of the problematic experienced editors have already shown up to this request to bludgeon here with chants of "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" over, and over, and over again to try and deflect from and/or justify their own behavior.

A contentious topic does not need to have more heat than light in any discussion. I support this case being opened with a wide reaching list of parties - to the point that I would not feel it unreasonable for people like myself, whose editing in the area is limited to participation in a small number of discussions with a small number of comments. However, the root cause of these problems isn't the sockpuppetry (where it occurs), it isn't those who ask others to respond to their PAG based arguments, it isn't even bludgeoning or incivility by "one side". The problem is that experienced editors here (as elsewhere on the internet) tend to gravitate towards the same side, and via strength in numbers can continue to make systemic bias worse, silence opposition/alternative points of view, and ultimately control the topic area. One need only look at the significant number of experienced editors who are not a part of the "in group" who've commented here that they avoid this topic area because they have no hope of participating constructively against the other experienced editors - whether they're working in coordination or simply independently being disruptive. As such, I see the only solution being the indefinite removal (topic ban - not warning) of any and all experienced editors who have, even just once, turned the heat up.

There are more than enough editors who, if those whose only response to disagreement is to turn up the heat are removed, would be willing to contribute in the topic area to keep the encyclopedia running. The result of this case will determine whether I myself will feel like my contributions are welcomed in the topic area and that I won't have to spend time fighting bludgeoning from another side with no hopes of having my points ever refuted.

Since this ARCA has been opened, there has been at least two more AE requests related to this topic area. ArbCom would do good to actually state their intentions on this issue - either open a case (or voice your intention to do so more clearly) so that AE admins can focus on other topic areas (outside obvious socks/SPAs/etc that AE can continue to handle), or resolve the issues in this topic area by some other means. As it stands, editors on the side with more experienced editors can continue to weaponize AE to remove editors they don't like from the topic area since AE admins feel obligated to continue reviewing reports with what ideally should be an impending case - and as they've said multiple times, AE isn't the right place nor equipped to handle reports regarding conduct that crosses over a plethora of editors. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see all motions being proposed as merely kicking the can down the road. The problems in this topic area are those like Levivich who have taken to making threats (as Barkeep points out) to other editors because they seem to feel they're immune to sanctions. By resolving this without any sanctions against the editors making this topic area contentious, that is only going to give those editors more reason to continue their disruption and "civil" POV pushing behaviors. A full case, with evidence, should be opened. If after the full case, ArbCom still feels those motions are the best way to resolve this, well fine. But an ARCA is not the place to expect to be given all the evidence, so we will just end up with a case eventually. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to presume the evidence posted by Amayorov was something that would be best suited as private evidence in an ArbCom case. This is even more reason that a case should be opened rather than trying to dispense with this by motion(s). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 06:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on motions

  • 1 - I haven't particularly seen evidence that there is an issue of AE time/capacity/capability being insufficient to handle the rare appeals made of AE actions in the area. However to quote HJ Mitchell if this takes some of the workload off of AE or gives admins cover to make unpopular but necessary decisions, and that sentiment is reflected by enough administrators who frequent AE in general (or in this topic area), then I have no problem with this being added to their toolkit. I am, however, skeptical that this will do much to improve the topic area.
  • 2 (generally) - I think limiting discussions from getting derailed is a good idea, but I don't think any of the current motions are the way to do it.
    • 2a - I have a couple problems with this. First of all, urged is toothless. If a word limit is going to be imposed, sanctions need to be authorized for violating it - whether it's a universal word limit in the topic area, a discussion-specific word limit, or an editor-specific limit. Secondly, I don't think a flat word limit is going to reduce disruption/work - all it will do is cause arguments over what counts for the word limit, and why certain things shouldn't count.
    • 2b - This is reactive which causes a problem. If an uninvolved administrator notices disruption that is in part (but not wholly) due to three users (A B and C), and A has already written 1000 words, B has written 2500 words, and C has written 4000 words, what is the administrator going to do? They could impose a "no further words" on all three, but that would be unfair to A who, even if their comments were partially disruptive, at least kept them concise. They could impose a blanket 1000 word restriction on everyone, but then how are B and C to be punished for not following a restriction that wasn't in place when they made the comments? They also wouldn't likely be able to come into compliance since removing/editing comments that have been replied to would be unacceptable. So that leads to the first situation - A is being restricted and B and C would not be penalized for exceeding it.
    • 2c - I don't think an automatic sunset is ideal. An automatic review of the current arbitration committee, sure, but if this is added for the topic area it should not go away until there is a clear consensus (either among arbitrators or AE admins) that it is no longer needed.
    • 2 (my proposal) - Rather than allowing word limitations or anything similar, administrators should be given increased "clerking" abilities for formal requests for comment in this area. As part of those abilities, they would be able to prevent future comments by an editor if that editor is no longer adding anything useful but is repeating themselves ad nauseum, would be able to strike through, hat, or remove off topic/useless comments, and as another alternative to impose reply-restrictions that amount to a discussion-specific interaction ban (i.e. if editor B and C are going back and forth, they are no longer permitted to reply to each other or to others questioning each other's comments, but they would still be able to reply to A on issues neither B nor C had raised/commented on). This would be difficult but not impossible to implement in my opinion.
  • 3 - I agree with those commenting that this should have no effect, since consensus is not based on bold !votes anyway, but on the strength of arguments. However, this does bring up a good point - contentious topics do somewhat frequently have to rely on !vote counting, because regardless of the strengths of the arguments, many users will be !voting based on their personal opinion. This can take the form of simply ignoring the PAG based arguments that others make entirely, or by claiming, without any logic/evidence, that the PAG doesn't apply/is being used improperly. This would also be resolved by clerking during the discussion - if an administrator observes a !vote or comment that disagrees with a PAG based argument by another and it does not actually explain why the user is of the opinion that the PAG does not apply, that comment can be struck through. That way the closing administrator doesn't have to sort through potentially hundreds or thousands of lines of text of opinion back and forth that don't have any helpful discussion on the why behind the reasoning.
  • 4 - I don't share the concerns about circumventing verifiability/onus/burden/etc, but I do have a potential solution to them - rather than it being any revert must be discussed before it can be redone, have a safety switch if need be. I'd like to recommend a couple alternatives:
    • 4 (suggestion A): If content is significantly changed, altered, or added to an article and that change/alteration/addition is contested, the change cannot be remade until a discussion takes place on the talk page. An exception will be made for an editor making one further change to return the disputed and surrounding content and context to a past version that is either supported by prior consensus or had not been in dispute for (time period) before the change was made, as well as for enforcing arbitration remedies such as ECR violations or editor topic bans. An editor wishing to avail themselves of the exception for returning it to the status quo while it is being discussed must clearly identify their edit as such using the edit summary, and must immediately support their view on the talk page by identifying the last time the status quo content had been significantly disputed or was added to the article originally if there was no dispute. Alternatively, if there was a prior consensus for the content, a link to this discussion will suffice. Any uninvolved administrator may evaluate the veracity of the claim of status quo, and if it is insufficient or in bad faith may recommend removing the disputed content altogether, changing it to a more-stable version, or a reasonable alternative. Editors abusing this exception may be sanctioned at AE from making any reverts under this exemption in the future.
    • 4 (suggestion B) - If content is significantly changed, altered, or added to an article and that change/alteration/addition is contested, the change cannot be remade until a discussion takes place on the talk page. An exception will be made for reverts to enforce ECR or an AE remedy. Editors who feel there is a significant concern over the changed/altered/added content remaining in the article while it is under discussion can request an evaluation of uninvolved administrators at Arbitration Enforcement as to whether the claim is valid enough to support removing it while it is under discussion. Only uninvolved administrators may reply to such a request, the request will be solely over whether the concern is significant enough to remove pending discussion (and not conduct issues), and if a decision to remove the content or return to a different prior status quo in the meantime is made, that decision will stand until a consensus emerges on the talk page.
  • Both of these suggestions would work similar to how full protection of an entire page works now - but with the added protection that it wouldn't be a unilateral administrator replying to an edit request or making the determination of which version to protect - as per policies on full protection this does not result in an administrator becoming involved simply by exercising discretion on whether to apply protection to the current version of an article, or to an older, stable, or pre-edit-war version, nor by avoid[ing] protecting a version that contains policy-violating content, such as vandalism, copyright violations, defamation, or poor-quality coverage of living people. Both of these would also avoid administrators having to fully protect an entire page - it amounts basically to a portion of the page being "protected" against further changes if a change is disputed, while giving uninvolved administrators the ability to enforce prior status quo and remove policy violating content as they would have if the page as a whole was fully protected.
    In fact, the protection policy already allows fully protecting an entire page as a response to an edit war - administrators have the discretion to temporarily fully protect an article to end an ongoing edit war. This approach may better suit multi-party disputes and contentious content, as it makes talk page consensus a requirement for implementation of requested edits. However this is rarely used as it prevents edits to other parts of the page while the temporary full protection is in place, so perhaps this form of "partial full protection" may help.

Ultimately, I still think a full case would be ideal to determine if any editors need to be removed from the area altogether, and to evaluate the exact extra tools that will be helpful. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Amakuru

I don't have a huge amount to say about the general question here, although I do gravitate towards Buidhe's point of view above... while this is clearly a hugely emotive and contentious topic area for many and of course there are numerous disputes, my from-a-distance perspective is that conduct is actually a lot better than you might expect. While many editors fall into one of two "camps", the WP principles of compromise, respecting others and objective analysis still seem to be present in many debates. I'd urge ArbCom to be extremely cautious about imposing too many editing restrictions or topic bans in this area, on either side of the debate, I think that would lead to less good coverage of the subject rather than more.

Anyway, I'm primarily commenting here because I was mentioned above by Domeditrix, seemingly criticising my close of the move review for the Gaza genocide article. I'd like to know what I was supposed to do differently in that instance? Perhaps it could have instead been a "no consensus" close, but the effect of endorsing the RM close would have been the same. It's been long-established that consensus building on Wikipedia takes place by viewing comments through the lens of policy, but equally closers almost always find consensus for the majority vote if there isn't a lot to choose between the strength of arguments. Bluntly, there isn't an objective policy that says Gaza genocide is a disallowed title, the closer of the original RM found consensus for that title, and many seasoned editors agreed. If Domeditrix and others think we should be evaluating discussions in a fundamentally different way from how we've historically done so, for example by not counting votes at all, then they need to run that by the community and get some sort of procedural update in place so we know exactly how to assess these things.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Doug Weller

I'm not here to comment on the case but to draw attention to a blog by a probably banned editor concerning this case and attacking a number of the editors here, specifically Number 57, Nableezy, Nishidani, Huldra, Black Kite, Sean.hoyland and Rosguill.[50] It also says "Only a technique called "semi-protection" (prohibiting people not logged in from editing) can stop crazy people from coming onto user pages and threatening editors. Huldra's Wikipedia user pages are not semi-protected." Doug Weller talk 14:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by Jéské Couriano

Looking at my current group of AE archives (April 2024 - present)[a], of 75 threads (discounting the two duplicates) 38 of them are PIA-related. And of 94 threads from Oct. 2023 (and the Re'im massacre) to this past March, 41 of them are PIA related.

I get the sense that the ongoing Israel-Hamas war is a major driver of the increased (mis)conduct in the area given its grossly outsized invocation at AE over the past ten months, and while I do agree that PIA5 is all but necessary at this point, I would handle it as a separate matter to this, akin to COL/AP2. Have one case to handle the editor conduct issues highlighted at the AE thread here (focusing on individuals) and then a second one to address the climate in the topic area writ large (focusing on policy changes to the topic). Trying to conflate the two a la The Omnibus Case is just going to be a bigger timesink than just doing them separately. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 17:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: The Arab-Israeli conflict's Arbitration history well predates the first PIA case; PIA1 is simply the first time ArbCom turned its gaze on the situation as a whole rather than just hitting individual editors only. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 22:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  1. ^ This figure does not count the (incomplete) Archive 339, nor does it count any unarchived threads at Enforcement, including the one referred here

Statement by RAN1

Speaking of the AE request about האופה, there's also the AE request about PeleYoetz which was closed as moot because of this referral (diff), so that should be reviewed too. RAN1 (talk) 09:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hydrangeans

Without the context, I'm not convinced BilledMammal's User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_RM_statistics page is on its own illuminating. Contributing to discussions about moving articles intersects with the policy on titling articles which includes all sort of guidance about using a common name, neutrally naming articles with the exception of non-neutral common names, etc., and deciding how to note-vote ought to involve basing one's decision on what sources say. Without that context, it's presuming too much to look at information presented in this manner and conclude something about an editor's "pro"-ness of X or Y or what have you, which is implicitly assuming editors are contributing to those move discussions based on something like whims rather than on sources and PAGs. Looking at User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_RM_statistics, if I see that editor A supported move B for an article about C, it feels a bit superficial for me to think, 'aha, editor A is a pro-C partisan' instead of thinking, 'I had better immerse myself in the relevant literature and see if I agree that the secondary sources support move B for topic C'. To the extent that POV pushing is the animating concern of this referral, it rather matters that we know what perspective is expressed by the highest quality sources. Otherwise we're just going by feel and will have every chance of producing a false balance.
And all that, the original request for enforcement is practically forgotten. Like, it's been two weeks. Seems like all that's left to do is dismiss in light of האופה not editing since the report. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 16:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chess: When the claimed media coverage ends on a culture war note accusing the Wikimedia Foundation of fiddling to the baroque tunes of DEI because they're funding progressive activism, I'm not sure why we should be more worried about the opinion of Pirate Wire than the academically published findings in the fields of history, anthropology, etc. Pirate Wire may dislike how academics define Zionism, but on Wikipedia we follow the best sources. Beyond the article author's decision to write about both the ArbCom case and the apparently now defunct TFP, it's not clear what the actual relevance is. The only person who has posted in this request that apparently overlaps is @Shushugah:, whose quoted material in the article seems to indicate having been skeptical of the TFP enterprise from the start anyway. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Personisinsterest

[Replying to this mention. Reply moved from Statement by Nishidani.]

Don’t know what’s happening, but keep me out. If the argument is that I’m bias, true, but I try as hard as I can to be neutral, and I can provide examples of this. Personisinsterest (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Figureofnine

More needs to be done to improve the civility of the I/P pages, because the current atmosphere in these pages is simply unacceptable. Editors and administrators both too often disregard that civility is not a suggestion, not a behavioral guideline, but is policy. Last month I proposed the revival of an intermediary civility board at the Village Pump. [51] The discussion is useful less for the particulars of whether such a board is useful than it is for the cross-section of attitudes on display, which vary from concern to not giving a damn about civility. Note also that some of the most active I/P editors involved in this discussion participated there and aired their views on the subject of civility.

Civility simply is not taken seriously anymore anywhere in the project, is lackadaisically and usually not enforced at all, and is a sad memory in the I/P pages. WP:CIVIL needs to be strictly enforced especially in contentious topic areas. If editors cannot show respect for other editors they should not be allowed to edit there. Administrators need to act and I believe that Arbcom has a responsibility in this area as well. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Motions: The recent motions are well-intentioned efforts to deal with the issues presented by this situation without dealing with the editors involved. While that approach is tempting and understandable, I believe that, as some have pointed out, that they might make things worse, promote tag-teaming and offsite canvassing, and constitute a failure to act if not worse. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Specific views on the motions:

1. Appeals only to Arbcom: I see some merit to this. It can prevent bludgeoning of administrators who venture into the subject area.

2. Word limits: On the surface it seems to address the problem that we face of repetitive discussions and "IDONTHEARTHAT" bad faith hounding that can drag out discussions. But it is a process answer to a behavior issue.

3. Excluding involved participants. Again, a process answer to an editor behavior issues. Not all involved editors are creating problems, tag-teaming and so on. This "throws out the baby with the bathwater."

4. "Enforced BRD" Another process answer to an editor behavior issue, and I don't believe that it would have any positive impact on the subject area whatosever.

---Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Biased by default? I think that Amayorov has come up with an intriguing solution below: label the articles in this and other contentious topic areas as biased and unbalanced by default, "explicitly mark them as such to readers with an appropriate banner," and so on. I agree insofar as this topic area is concerned. Others, I do not know.

We are here because of a widespread belief, both on and off-wiki, that these articles are biased. Let's tell the public: "In this subject area, neutrality is not a given. Enter at your own risk." I think that would restore faith in the project that many do not have, or have lost. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich: Yes, one can argue that all articles in controversial subject areas will be viewed as biased by both sides of the controversies. That is certainly true with these articles. It is also true that these articles have the potential for bringing the project into disrepute. Is an article too pro-X? Is it too pro-Y? Is there canvassing by editors for X? Is there canvassing by editors for Y? Let's not be naive or sanguine. Canvassing is the elephant in the room. There is canvassing, without a doubt, by all parties in this and other controversial topic areas no matter what they are, in which the off-wiki fighting is intense and Wikipedia is just one area in a wide-ranging conflict. Wikipedia is not equipped to deal with such situations adequately. Hell we can't even keep the discussions civil. We have failed at that. Administrators have failed. Arbcom has failed. We, the editors, have failed. We need to admit that we haven't done a good job of keeping these articles free of bias. We need to concede that in these subject areas we cannot prevent bias from creeping into and even overwhelming articles. We need to say that loud and clear, without being mealy-mouthed or equivocal. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Amayorov

No sure if this has been raised already, but there is evidence circulating online of potential WP:TAGTEAMing and WP:CANVASSing by bad-faith editors from both sides. (Redacted) Here’s one example. Amayorov (talk) 01:01, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources I previously posted, and which have since been redacted, reported that a group of editors had been coordinating using third-party tools (e.g. Discord) to fight “on the Wikipedia front the information battle for truth, peace and justice.” According to the articles, their activity included publishing how-to videos, organizing edits, and compiling lists of "work in progress" pages they aimed to modify.
As one published material that I referenced put it, "Wikipedia is not just an online encyclopedia. It’s a battleground for narratives." Amayorov (talk) 20:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A naive proposal: Would it be useful to treat all articles on specific contentious topics as biased and unbalanced by default, and explicitly mark them as such to readers with an appropriate banner? To remove this banner, we could introduce more stringent criteria requiring a wider consensus, including input from uninvolved editors. Articles that fail to pass these reviews would remain marked as "potentially biased". It would also be easier to re-introduce a banner if needed.

This approach would be less disruptive to the usual editing process, as the added rules would only relate to the article banner, while the content itself would continue to be edited according to the existing rules. Amayorov (talk) 11:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Springee

I'm not active in this area but I do see some serious issues with the Gaza Genocide page move. Part of this is the issue associated with very close/questionable closes being hard to change. This was an example where the !vote split was near 50/50 between the current title which reads as genocide is given, and the two alternatives which both made it clear this was an accusation/disputed claim. This is the sort of situation where a closer, while acting in good faith, can create issues with a questionable close. In this case, editors had good reason to question the close of POVTITLE grounds. However, with a basically 50/50 split between editors who were happy/unhappy with the move the review was closed as no-consensus. I feel in cases like this if we can't endorse the close then the close needs to be reverted (perhaps for a panel close). Note that this isn't specifically a problem for this topic area.

I would also suggest that within contentious topic areas it would be good to rule that POV neutrality is more important than ever. If Wikipedia is seen to be taking sides it undermines the credibility of the whole project. It also is more likely to create fights etc. I would encourage the committee to look not just at editor behavior but structural ways we can try to avoid these problem in the future. There are many good editors on both sides of this topic and even more who likely aren't on either side but who just want to do good work in this area. I think some rules based reforms vs finger pointing at editors might be helpful here. Springee (talk) 12:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by starship.paint

I wasn't intending to comment, but then I read #Motion 3: Involved participants as originally written by HJ Mitchell, which allows only uninvolved editors to vote. I believe this motion would greatly benefit sockpuppets and meatpuppets at the expense of experienced editors. starship.paint (RUN) 13:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A decision has now been rendered on the proposals (1, one of the 2s, 3 and 4). Shall we bring this matter to a close? starship.paint (RUN) 00:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vice_regent

I'd like to request the admins below kindly consider "moderated discussion" as a way to achieve consensus, and consider Talk:Jerusalem/2013 RfC discussion as a good example. The pre-RfC discussion involved some very lengthy analysis of sources. This is unavoidable given the volume of scholarship involved. But it was largely kept out of the RfC (WP:RFC/Jerusalem) itself. The RfC itself was orderly. And finally, it was closed by a panel with a detailed rationale.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on motions (VR)

Motion 4

HJ Mitchell and CaptainEek, with respect to Motion 4: Enforced BRD, I personally felt that this provision became fairly unworkable in the case of WP:ARBIRP. There was lots of very lengthy discussion on who reverted what (eg see this lengthy discussion and this request for clarification). In small discussions (2-4 people) this motion effectively gives every participant a veto, which leads to WP:STONEWALLING. Everything had to be resolved by RfCs, which take a month to discuss and then maybe another month to wait to be closed.

Can I suggest that this remedy be applied similar to 2b: i.e. imposed by an uninvolved admin on a particular article for a particular time period (eg. imposed on all edits to X recent event article for 30 days).VR (Please ping on reply) 15:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Motion 2

CaptainEek for motion 2c, can I suggest it only apply to RfCs for which a WP:RFCBEFORE has been given adequate time? I find most RMs don't have a pre-discussion done, so if a change is being proposed for the first time, it can take longer than 1,000 words to do sufficient source analysis.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Supreme Deliciousness regarding Motion 4: Enforced BRD

This is a very bad idea because it will give editors the tool to lock out any material they dont like for any reason. They can then filibuster at the talkpage and make it virtually impossible to reinstate the material because "no consensus has been reached". Recently something very similar happened at the Golan Heights article where well sourced and relevant information was removed without any valid reason whatsoever. Certain editors will use this to disrupt articles within the area of conflict. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Super Goku V

Regarding a potential Motion 3b, maybe it is better to split the negatives from the motion? Maybe something like: Editors may designate themselves involved in the entire topic area or a subset of it, or may be designated by an uninvolved admin (on a user's talk page / by being logged at the Arbitration enforcement log). Designations by administrators may be appealed in the same way as sanctions. (Self-designations may be requested to be reviewed for removal after a year.) Designation is not a suggestion that an editor's contributions are problematic. Then a potential Motion 5 could go into restrictions in place on those involved, such as unable to close discussions, only one new discussion a day, twenty comment limit a day for talk pages under ARBPIA, 1RR limit, must have 2.5k edits to participate outside edit requests, any and all other suggestions, etc. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49, Hydrangeans, L235, Nishidani, RAN1, and ToBeFree: Just to give a heads up, האופה (HaOfa) has resumed editing with 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike on the 29th and has submitted a statement above as of a couple of hours ago. (Pinging those who discussed האופה) --Super Goku V (talk) 09:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ToBeFree: Regarding Motion 5, I would be more disappointed in a lack of a case than a case that doesn't have solutions for the future. The AE thread and this discussion has shown that there are multiple editors whose behavior and actions should be looked into, regardless of the attempts to try to fix the problem. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:18, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chess: Pirate Wire looks a bit unreliable and there appears to be at least one false claim in that article as the March case they discuss was declined months ago for technical reasons, not 'still pending seven months later.' (Additionally, they seem to be very confused about how Arbitrators are elected.) Additionally, the Discord claims have been known for months now. That aside, any evidence of a group using Discord to coordinated edits should be brought to ArbCom's attention. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coretheapple

Seems that I've come here as this C&A is sunsetting. I am not sure about whether the motions will have an impact, but I imagine they are worth trying. Generally I agree with the comments made by Tryptofish, Swatjester and Number 57. I've reviewed the charts that have been proffered here, and I don't find them useful or probative of anything whatsoever. I suggest that the Committee go ahead, pass whatever you want to pass as motions, but also go ahead with a case as there is a need for one as the topic area needs help. I believe the source of the problems is that due to various reasons, the Wikipedia community as a whole has avoided this subject area. Thus the very basis of the project, which is the genius of crowds, has gone, and the result has been detrimental to both the community and the reader. These points were made early on by the three users I mentioned and others, but the point has been lost by the usual swamp of verbiage and deflection.Coretheapple (talk) 16:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amayorov afraid what you're suggesting would take the project off the hook in not just this case but in scores of contentious articles on every conceivable subject, whether officially designated as "contentious" or not. The project is an ongoing effort, and surrendering on that basic principle is inadvisable. Coretheapple (talk) 19:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Supreme Deliciousness Not necessarily. If it has that effect, it can be put in reverse. I don't see the harm in trying to improve matters in these articles, even with a not-insignificant chance of failure. My guess is that the chance of failure if this BRD motion is passed is at least 50%. Coretheapple (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reading through the arbitrator comments, I may be wrong but it appears to me that a full case is not by any means off the table, and that the motions are not necessarily going to be a substtitute for a full case. It might be clarifying if the committee would formally vote up or down on that, with the arbs stating their reasons for or against the idea of opening a full case. Coretheapple (talk) 22:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CaptainEek As I said above, I see the virtue of at least attempting to bring order to the subject area by motions, even though I don't believe most would work and some may acdtually be harmful. But I do think arbcom has to do something unless it's clearly a bad idea. I think that the RS proposal, with a carve-out for "recent" events, is clearly a bad idea. What makes it so is that the reliability of the sourcing itself is a matter of contention. In the Zionism article, "the Bible" arose in this discussion, the reaction to which was so vociferous that the editor who raised the issue was blocked. Not taking sides in that particular discussion, in which I was not involved, it's plain that what is and is not a reliable source was not really the issue in that discussion. The editor simply raised the Zionist roots as being in antiquity and that Zionism is implicit in religious observances and in the history of the Jewish people. Editors need some freedom and leeway in discussing these fraught subjects. Therefore I would point to that discussion not as a reason to impose an RS restriction but rather to not impose one. And the carve-out for recent events makes little sense. Coretheapple (talk) 16:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate Levivich clarifying what he means by "recent events" and his sourcing idea generally regarding use of contemporary newspapers etc. as pertains to historical events. This is I think not a constructive idea, and would unduly handcuff editors in sourcing articles. We have a fine array of contemporary sources available through the Wikipedia Library and we should use more of them, not less, subject of course to discussion as to their appropriateness, rather than hand down a blanket prohibition. Coretheapple (talk) 17:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nishidani, you may very well be right (re Balfour etc.) and I'm not going to argue the point here. But those who would (not here but in the relevant locations) should not feel that doing so means crossing a red line if they cite sources on a banned list, or that if they stray from say the Journal of Palestine Studies on matters relative to 1948 that they are going to be topic-banned. We simply can't have that kind of heavy-handed and unwarranted restriction. The idea is to bring editors into this topic area not to repel them. Now as for the editor in question, who I alluded to concerning that discussion, he was initially blocked for two months, which was converted to a block from editing the Zionism article or contributing to its talk page for two months. This is an extremely serious penalty, far worse than I usually see doled out on AE after lengthy discussions, and we don't even have the kind of restriction being advocated here. We don't want good-faith editors walking on eggshells. Coretheapple (talk) 21:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Izno

Motion 2b would be clearer if the two kinds of restrictions suggested there were sorted into either page restrictions or editor restrictions. Particularly, whether "all participants" is a page restriction as I believe is intended. Izno (talk) 22:03, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

(Comment moved from below, regarding to motion No. 4) This appears to be functionally equivalent to the Consensus Required restriction that's already available. SPECIFICO talk 02:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Valereee

I second Levivich's suggestion that a RS consensus required restriction would be a helpful tool. These weren't new editors trying to source to dictionaries, the Bible, and Wikipedia. All had thousands of edits; one had 100K+ edits. Valereee (talk) 12:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Ïvana needs to be added to any case. Valereee (talk) 18:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by isaacl

Regarding word-limit restrictions: I think a limit per discussion will unduly hamper the ability for discussion to reach a conclusion. Earlier participants will no longer be able to work towards a greater common understanding as they hit their limits. For longer discussions, the set of editors able to comment will keep shifting. Also managing the word count would be time consuming. I suggest having a moderated round-robin discussion phase, possibly with word limits per contributor in each discussion round, would help manage discussions from being swamped by some editors and enable more people to be heard from, while still allowing earlier participants to continue to contribute. isaacl (talk) 22:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding suggestions from third parties: I don't know if the arbitrators have considered the idea of using round-robin discussion phases that I suggested. The obvious drawback of course is the need to have a moderator to decide when the next round starts and when the process can productively end. If this can be done, though, I think it has the potential to streamline discussion, thus making it more efficient and effective. isaacl (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon (PIA4.5)

I have a nomenclature suggestion and some comments on the proposed remedies. I propose that the remedies that will be implemented, which are not a PIA5 case, but build on PIA4, be referred to in short as PIA4.5.

I haven't edited in the subject area, partly because it is so contentious, and I didn't comment earlier on the AE referral, because I thought that there were at least two reasonable alternatives for ArbCom, a PIA5 case, or guidance to Arbitration Enforcement administrators. I see that ArbCom is planning to give stronger tools to administrators, which I concur with. Proposal 1, appeals only to ArbCom, is a good idea. I would suggest that ArbCom strengthen it with advice that administrators use it frequently, and advice that administrators use the topic and site ban hammers frequently, with appeals only to ArbCom.

Giving administrators the power to impose word limits is an excellent idea, better than trying to have one size fit all.

I don't think that any rule against bludgeoning is necessary, because bludgeoning is tendentious editing, which is already sanctioned. However, guidance to administrators to use both word limits and the ban hammers against editors who bludgeon or filibuster is a good idea.

Ensure that administrators know that ArbCom will back them up, and that they are encouraged to deal strongly with difficult editors, as PIA4.5. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added Comment - Under Advisement Too Long

This case has been under advisement by ArbCom for almost three months, which is too long. In the meantime, there has been a troublesome Request for Arbitration, which should not have been filed in its present form, but which illustrates that there is continuing misconduct, and that editors are impatient.

ArbCom should take some final action immediately, at least to enact and implement the draft rules concerning appeals and concerning word limits, but preferably opening a full PIA5 case. There has been no need for ArbCom to continue discussing when action is needed. Open a case to deal with identified misconduct and to identify and deal with further misconduct. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chess

I dislike broad word limits because they make it difficult to analyze sources in-depth. In the G&K paper on Wikipedia's (alleged) distortion of the Holocaust [52], word count restrictions made it impossible to quote sources and argue about what they were saying.

An editor can also say "this source says 'x'" in 4+ words and I might spend 50 words explaining exactly how it doesn't. I've had this happen to me in a recent WP:RSN discussion on The Telegraph, where I was both criticized for posting a wall of text in rebuttal to a much shorter !vote and commended for analyzing sources in a way the original comment didn't.

Hard word counts make it easy to waste someone else's word count on a rebuttal by throwing a bunch of sources into the discussion at once.

We should enforce stricter threading and discussion organization like how ArbCom splits evidence from proposals. Word limits can be applied to the main discussion and relaxed in ancillary sections related to sourcing. Alternatively an editor can be given the chance to hat/collapse sections of their own comments so as not to violate word count restrictions. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 01:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: Do you foresee word limits being imposed before a discussion begins, or afterwards?
If word limits are expected to be justified by admins based on discussion, there's a first-mover advantage for those that get in a lot of words first. Administrative action could be seen as a punishment or advantage to a certain side.
Pre-emptive word limits would be more neutral. There's a trend on wiki towards having a WP:RFCBEFORE (pre-RfC discussion) for especially contentious RfCs, and the motion should be interpreted to make word count restrictions something that can imposed ahead of time. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:59, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This case is getting picked up by media outlets now.[53] It is shocking to me that there is documented evidence of off wiki coordination on Discord from pro-Palestinian editors and the "resident Wikipedia expert" is not being examined here.
ArbCom's mandate includes original jurisdiction over non-public evidence. You cannot delegate this authority to the community per foundation:Resolution: Access to nonpublic data. You need to hold a case to demonstrate that you've seen the evidence and are choosing to do nothing. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 16:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hydrangeans: I'm more concerned that editors not mentioned in this case have been linked to a Discord server where they coordinated editing. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 18:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ïvana: Did you give guidance to editors to boost their edit counts by fixing CS1 errors in order to get extended confirmed? I just filled an AE request against someone that did exactly that[54] and it appears to trace back to something you are quoted as saying. [55] From Ivana: This category contains almost 150k articles with small css errors that anyone can fix. If you click on a specific subcategory it tells you exactly what is wrong and how to fix it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:CS1_errors Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 14:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ïvana: Are you coordinating with CoolAndUniqueUsername? You edit many of the same pages: [56] CoolAndUniqueUsername is the editor in the WP:AE thread that I opened, and followed your guide to make CS1 error fixes to reach EC. The interaction analyzer between you two is enlightening: [57]
This is all within the first month of getting EC. This is incredibly suspicious behaviour.
We know there is a "Tech 4 Palestine" Discord server based on news articles. On that server, you were publicly acknowledged as the head of a "blitz team" that edited articles in a coordinated fashion. I'm pretty sure CoolAndUniqueUsername is a member of such a blitz team.
I'm zeroing in on CoolAndUniqueUsername as a good example to cross-reference with. They speedran 500/30 using a guide from the Discord, then dropped their editing frequency to almost nothing, switching to commenting on various discussion. This means they have very little "camouflage" in terms of non-canvassed edits, so we can immediately identify articles or discussions that CoolAndUniqueUsername edited as being targeted by Tech 4 Palestine. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Scharb: I believe this is evidence of at least 1 other person linked to the T4P group. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's also notable that the #wikipedia channel in T4P was made private on November 1st 2024, and CoolAndUniqueUsername's editing dropped by over 90% from October to November. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ïvana: You say I never redirected people to discussions or engaged in canvassing. However, you posted to the Discord: <redacted> Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An admin or oversighter can correct me if I'm wrong, but the above isn't outing as Ivana has disclosed the existence of her Discord account onwiki on this very page. Per Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_169#Discord_logs, we can now discuss it. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chess: Acting as an OS in a "OS as a first resort" way, I have removed the link you had as the disclosure made here is insufficient to then have the accounts linked per the discussion you posted. I will be sending this decision to the OS list for further review. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49: I had a discussion with another oversighter about this, as an FYI.[66] Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ïvana: This is mental gymnastics. The account is named Ivana. You acknowledged here that you had an account on the Tech 4 Palestine Discord server. That's a very clear linkage between the two.
Apologies about saying November, I counted incorrectly, so I will use numerical months from now on. The #wikipedia channel in T4P was made private on 2024-09-01 (as you acknowledge). That is when CoolAndUniqueUsername's edits dropped to near-zero, in 2024-09. [67]
Likewise for the AN thread, you acknowledge having linked it on Discord. That's still attempted canvassing.
(Redacted) some parts of this comment due to arb recommendation.[68] I was writing the comment before CaptainEek posted but posted after, so I edited this to avoid bringing in new material. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Andrevan

If I'm not allowed to leave this comment here, please remove it. The problem is not too many words, but which words. Civility is a first-class citizen in our policy and extends to insinuating a political motivation without evidence, something that happens all too frequently, not to mention other forms of WP:NPA such as questioning whether someone read the link, questioning their knowledge or credentials, or other types of ad hominem. Sadly, a low tolerance for this type of behavior is not enforced. Some editors and even admins at times, routinely get away with improper attacks, biting newbies and assuming bad faith. Wikipedia is emphatically supposed to be friendly and forgiving, but in this topic area that seems to be ignored. To quote a 2023 study in the peer-reviewed open-access journal PNAS Nexus, "Toxic comments are associated with reduced activity of volunteer editors on Wikipedia. The effects of toxic comments are potentially even greater in the long term, as they are associated with a significantly increased risk of editors leaving the project altogether. Using an agent-based model, we demonstrate that toxicity attacks on Wikipedia have the potential to impede the progress of the entire project. Our results underscore the importance of mitigating toxic speech on collaborative platforms such as Wikipedia to ensure their continued success." [1] Andre🚐 21:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think some of the recent comments show the problems with accusations of bad faith, propaganda, WP:ASPERSIONs without diffs and so on that richly characterize this topic area, not to mention self-indulgent WP:TEXTWALL and substituting one's own opinion for a balanced, WP:NPOV of reliable source material, including Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent. Everyone has blind spots and makes mistakes, present company included, but some people have trouble moderating their worst impulses, which contributes to the inappropriate communication and WP:BATTLEGROUND environment. Anyway, since someone mentioned me, if you add me as a party I expect you to triple my current salary, and I want to be able to use the company car on weekends, and expense my Grubhubs. Also, regarding the HJ Mitchell suggestion: We may well end up removing some of the more prominent participants from the topic area but I don't envisage that having much effect—the most likely scenario is that they are simply replaced by other editors and everything continues much as it was because this is an emotive topic area not short of editors with strong, heartfelt opinions held in good faith but vehemently opposed by others with different opinions held equally strongly and in equally good faith. We can't solve the real-life Arab-Israeli conflict on Wikipedia I think this is an insightful point. We can't solve the problem, and if some of the worst repeat actors are dealt with, that conflict will continue to rage on. However, one person does make a difference. We all know those people who have an outsize impact on their work or their collaborators. If we actually dealt with and enforced the standard rules of decorum, while we'd still have plenty of agitation on each side, we could do it civilly and respectfully and actually create some amount of balance and fair play. I do believe it's not a pipe dream. So whether it's a long-time, magisterial 100k+ edits editor making personal attacks or a fresh new, maybe-sock account making a naive and good-faith comment, why can't we just enforce the rules and not grant infinite strikes to bad actors? Andre🚐 23:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I agree with Tryptofish. Andre🚐 23:31, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I saw User:Arkon asking if the case will be opened. It seems that the case request needs 5 support and it has 2, maybe 3 or 4, at most, so the case won't be opened and the request fails. IMHO, that would be a bad thing for this topic area and the project. Andre🚐 23:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree with Nableezy and Sean.hoyland and I agree with ABHammad that disruptive sockpuppetry is unlikely to make a huge difference in the area, but consistent incivility and bad faith does. Andre🚐 19:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Smirnov, Ivan; Oprea, Camelia; Strohmaier, Markus (2023). "Toxic comments are associated with reduced activity of volunteer editors on Wikipedia". PNAS Nexus. pp. pgad385. doi:10.1093/pnasnexus/pgad385. PMC 10697426. PMID 38059265. Retrieved 2024-10-05.

Statement by Mikeblas

 Clerk note: Split from § Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS above. Please remember to comment in your own section :) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:21, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1) This should be done site-wide. But who would review them? What happens when they're not accurate? What if there's a dispute about accuracy or interpretation?
2) Seems like this would lead to gaming -- racing to thirty by making trivial edits all over, cosmetic changes that are kind of disruptive and spammy. Build bots to do it, sell the pre-confirmed accounts at auction. This has happened with practically every other site with whatever "scoring" mechanism is used.
These don't seem like particularly helpful suggestions to me. -- mikeblas (talk) 02:49, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ïvana

It has been brought to my attention that I've been mentioned here, directly and indirectly, so I think it's necessary for me to respond (not sure if this is the right place to do so, please remove this if I'm wrong).

I briefly joined an off-wiki group at the beginning of the year. I volunteered to help newcomers/people interested in WP, mostly answering basic questions. There are plenty of places that offer that kind of help, including WP itself (I usually just referred people to the policy or guideline related to their question, or to the existing tutorials uploaded here). These people were, again, just getting started, so they couldn't participate in the I/P topic even if they wanted to. I was never a recruiter, I just offered some guidance to whoever asked. I did that for a couple of months and eventually stopped because of time constraints. The project at that point was pretty much dead anyways since the person responsible for it was inactive due to family matters. It was closed shortly after I left (months ago) due to doxxing.

There is a table in WP (which I didn't create) showing precisely what kind of activities the group was involved with. It is not different from sections of any given Wiki project which are public calls for the creation of articles, to do lists, etc. The table just offered easy edits for newcomers. The vast majority of the items were non I/P; the few that can be considered part of the topic were just added as a sort of watchlist by the owner of the list (not sure why cause thats what the actual watchlist is for, but that was the explanation I was given back then). Some had notes referring to missing information that should be added, but nothing was done. There were no linked discussions or anything alluding to building consensus or artificially manufacture it, the entries were low level edits looking to add content to some articles like universities, BLPs, etc. Non ECR editors cannot edit in the I/P topic anyway, so what would sending them there accomplish? I myself constantly revert them from those pages all the time, whether I agree with them or not (as a side note, I don't understand why those pages are not automatically restricted). There was also a section dedicated to creating articles for books. All draft submissions are reviewed by an uninvolved editor anyway, I never used my privileges to move them to mainspace. I wasn't involved there apart from occasionally answering basic questions. I created some templates detailing policies and guidelines related to the creation of articles and deleted them later because of safety concerns; I didn't wanna have them here anymore opening the possibility of random people using them and discovering that they could email me/write on my talk page, because some threatened to and are actively trying to dox me and I received intimidatory messages.

Meatpuppetry and collaboration are two different things, and the latest is not against the rules. In all my years here I have never been accused of being uncivil, disruptive, etc. I have only received two (informal?) warnings relatively recently on my talk page when I inadvertently went against 1RR, and I self-reverted immediately. I make sure to participate in discussions whenever necessary to build consensus. Obviously I have a bias and so does everyone here; I never claimed to be objective. Still, I try my best to provide factual based perspectives backed by sources instead of relying on inflammatory comments, personal views, or doing a mere "I agree with x editor" and nothing more.

I would like to point out that the pro Israel bloggers, journalists, twitter accounts, etc are the ones blatantly demanding canvassing and mass edits against consensus (those articles immediately get vandalized, wasting everyone's time), on top of singling out and harrassing editors, saying anyone that doesn't follow their narrative is “pro-Hamas” (or in my case, a Russian asset) or talking about a “regime” controlling Wikipedia. It's hard to take these accusations seriously when they are prefaced with that kind of language. I'm not even offended by it anymore, I just think it's funny. Am I a pro Hamas agent backed by both Iran and Russia and part of a foreign cell looking to radicalize WP? Guess we'll never know!

Lastly, I will address the accusation that has been mentioned most often in connection with my name: tag teaming/canvassing. In a topic like I/P there are actually not a lot of editors that participate regularly. People come and go and maybe a couple dozen or so known faces remain. Overlaps are bound to happen. I have also noticed editors that seem to be drawn to discussions as a pair or group. Is that evidence of tag teaming/canvassing? Not necessarily. We all monitor the same pages. My watchlist is useless (+1.5k items) so I sometimes check out other editors' contributions to see if I missed something. I think it would be more suspicious to intentionally go out of your way to avoid interacting with someone, especially since we all pretty much rotate between the same pages. I have probably interacted with the majority of the people mentioned here at some point.

Not sure what else is there to say. Apologies for the length. - Ïvana (talk) 01:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Scharb: Respectfully, are we supposed to entertain the delusions of every right wing islamophobic conspiracy theorist we come across? Every time I see a new shoddy article about the "propaganda war" in WP their claims are more wild, speculating about things without offering any kind of proof, because there isn't any. The latest one being paraded around is from an "anti woke" islamophobic propaganda blog turned website talking about a "regime" controlling WP, with no fact-checking and a history of publishing pieces with no evidence backing them up, created by a Peter Thiel protégée/wannabe, while the author is obsessed with presenting WP as being overrun by liberal communist radical marxist Hamas propaganda. Everything is written to generate shock value and amplified by the usual echo chamber. The people writing those articles don't understand how WP works, although they do seem to be fed a particular narrative by unnamed editors that they constantly quote.
If you have concrete proof of me canvassing, feel free to report me. I'm not going to reiterate what I have already said. And regarding your assertion of There is no reason why a group of 40 people should be contributing more than 90% of text to the vast majority of articles on a controversial subject I'm not sure if that stat is even correct, but assuming it is, I'm not part of that group, and even if I was, there's nothing preventing others from creating an account (or reviving an old account) and participating here. What would the solution to feeling underrepresented be, anyway? Should prolific editors be banned just because you disagree with their views? - Ïvana (talk) 00:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chess: It's funny how you're framing it as boost their edit counts [...] in order to get extended confirmed when that section is explicitly titled "Helpful links for easy editing". I offered guidance for people interested in learning how to use WP. That included suggestions on easy edits to get familiarized with the system. Is anyone fixing CSS errors automatically connected to me? I think that's a stretch. Some of the links I shared were, for example, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Screencast/Screencast_Gallery, Help:Introduction_to_editing_with_Wiki_Markup/1, Help:Introduction_to_editing_with_VisualEditor/1, Wikipedia:Everything_you_need_to_know, Wikipedia:List_of_policies_and_guidelines, Category:Articles_lacking_sources, Wikipedia:Pages_needing_translation_into_English, etc. Maybe you should track anyone adding missing sources and open cases for them too.
As a side comment, there are hundreds of guides in the internet that people use. For example all of these are from universities: 1 2 3 4 5 6. There is also a newcomers page in WP offering tips (wish I learned about it years ago when I created my account). If you wanna accuse someone of bad faith editing based on them doing a specific type of edit when they were newbies (which is also not a rare occurrence at all) you'll need stronger evidence than "Ivana made a comment months ago and they seem to be following that advice".
I'm not coordinating with anyone, and like I already said before, I usually participate in discussions with the same people because we all edit the same pages. It's unavoidable, and it happens on both "sides". Now you're expanding your accusations to include editors who have commented on the same discussions as I have.
you were publicly acknowledged as the head of a "blitz team" that edited articles in a coordinated fashion there is actually no proof of that, no matter how much you or people off wiki try to make it seem bigger than what it was (and the project has been dead for months). I think it's hilarious how they are desperate to make it as some sort of CAMERA equivalent, making up false stats like that "40 users contribute to 90% of the text in the I/P topic". Every lie is more egregious than the last because they are just hoping that something sticks, because outrage generates clicks, and because the average person doesn't know how WP works so it might sound believable. I've seen assertions like "they participated in hundreds of discussions" (as in, canvassing to alter the outcome) and I'm genuinely wondering where did that come from. Did they just pick a bunch of "pro-Hamas" editors, assumed we are all working together, and combined all of our edits? I never redirected people to discussions or engaged in canvassing; the list of possible edits compiled on the to-do list shows that, since they are extremely basic because they were proposed for newcomers. I feel like I'm constantly repeating myself.
I don't know if CoolAndUniqueUsername was part of that server since I never asked for WP usernames when I was asked a question because it wasn't necessary, but if your only proof is a) them participating in some discussions where I was also part of and b) them fixing some CSS errors then you'll have to report dozens of people.
I also think it's ironic how you are mentioning Scharb when they are a clear case of someone rushing to become ECR and then switching to be a SPA. Guess it doesn't matter when you agree with them. - Ïvana (talk) 22:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chess: I have never linked any personal account here. Acknowledging that I was part of an off-wiki group does not mean I linked a specific profile. I don't remember if I posted personal information when I had a Discord account, but if I did and I get outed, I will hold you partially responsible. I have already received threatening messages.
And as far as I'm aware the T4P WP project was ended at the beginning of September, not November (and had been pretty much inactive since July) so thats another thing you got wrong.
Yes, I never engaged in canvassing. This is a good example of you making assertions with nothing to back them up that we are supposed to believe based on vibes. Please tell me how exactly that discussion is proof of me canvassing, considering that neither me or the person you are accusing of being somehow related to me participated there and as far as I can see, only the regulars did (and people I don't recognize but have thousand of edits so, not new accounts - I also dont remember interacting with any of them when editing in the I/P area). What I do see is one account that has been banned for being a sock (and not a propal one). Please tell me exactly who do you think I sent to influence the outcome of that discussion. Make sure to @ them so they can explain themselves. - Ïvana (talk) 02:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chess: If you have concrete proof for your accusations, make a report and address everything there. I am not obligated to entertain your baseless arguments here repeatedly, especially regarding another editor (you can surely ask them yourself?). Nor will I continue to correct you every time you misinterpret what I say or outright ignore my answers, only to ask the same questions again hoping for a different response. Per CaptainEek and for the sake of everyone here, since they are probably receiving multiple notifications, I'll stop clogging everyone's feeds. - Ïvana (talk) 04:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Scharb

Response to statement by Ïvana
Who else participated in this group? Scharb (talk) 20:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ivana's statement, I briefly joined an off-wiki group at the beginning of the year. I volunteered to help newcomers/people interested in WP, mostly answering basic questions. must be taken as a confession to a serious WP:STEALTH violation committed by a group called Tech for Palestine, and it corroborates the (biased but verifiable) infractions documented by Piratewires.
I hope the arbiters were able to see the Wiki for Palestine video before it was made private, as it was the strongest evidence. It instructed users how to game the system to acquire extended-confirmed and correct great wrongs, and was brazenly at odds with the spirit and mission of Wikipedia. It appears to be the project of limited-purpose public figure, [Avigail Abarbanel], a professional organizer for the activist group JVP ($3m annual budget) and contributor to not-RS Mondoweiss and [not-RS Electronic Intifada], whose talking points English IAP Wikipedia now more closely resemble than the similar articles on other languages of Wikipedia.
There is no reason why a group of 40 people should be contributing more than 90% of text to the vast majority of articles on a controversial subject, resulting in poor and biased content, and drowning out all other input. It's completely against Wikipedia's principles. Their collective one million contributions have made this part of Wikipedia worse, not better. There are many English-speakers who now use autotranslations of German or French Wikipedia articles to get their information about IAP, because the bias is so infamous.
If the statistical claims can be independently verified, indicating a major WP:STEALTH violation, then it must be acted on decisively to preserve Wikipedia's spirit.
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/CAMERA_lobbying sets a clear precedent. Scharb (talk) 00:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Never trust, always verify. I verified. I saw the video before it was made private. It showed that this group's purpose was in numerous egregious violations of Wikipedia policies. I attested what I saw for the sake of truthfulness, lest someone later ask "why didn't anyone say so at the time?" Even though my witness is not worth enough on its own, it was important to do so. I am just trying to do the right thing.
Once you were in contact with other Wikipedia articles off-site, for any length of time, you could have traded other contact info and may be very well in communication with these other editors, which explains why it's always the same few people who rush to undo constructive changes and establish phony "consensus" (even though WP is not a ballot) to obstruct those changes and defend their "team".
I believe in Wikipedia's mission, in NPOV, in volunteerism. This account is old enough to vote. My involvement here is to bring Wikipedia up to its content standards and protect that mission, not to push any point of view. Scharb (talk) 02:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sir Kenneth Kho

There are all sorts of allegations and data in this lengthy ARCA. They all boil down to this, Wikipedia cannot solve real world conflicts. However, no matter how uncivil people get, no matter how biased people get, we need to avoid a breakdown of trust. Although Wikipedia is not a democracy, it is still egalitarian in principle, everyone is worthy of consideration, and rules are followed. ARBECR was created for this, to prevent sockpuppetry and enforce bans.

Sockpuppetry is a fact of life in this topic area since the antiquity of this site, and even though there are clear data on sockpuppetry presented in this ARCA, people seem powerless against it as ARBECR proved not effective enough. This ARCA has not been closed because people are unsure what to do. The motions currently likely to pass are quite weak, caution is obviously taken not to slow down editing in the topic area greatly, and skepticism on what a full case would accomplish is warranted.

I boldly propose a motion to allow filing SPI reports without evidence of sockpuppetry if there is evidence of disruptive editing in this topic area, this is allowed by CheckUser policy. This would appease both legitimate sides, those who think experienced editors are the problem, and those who think new editors are the problem. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 21:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Red-tailed hawk That is a valid question, is filing SPI reports solely based on evidence of disruptive editing considered fishing, which would be inappropriate/unnecessary/unsubstantiated?

To answer that, I look at the two consecutive edits on the early days of the CU page by Deskana (ArbCom 2008) which were five minutes apart [69], [70]. In the first edit, Deskana created the fishing subsection which is similar to what we have today. In the second edit, Deskana commented how they regularly check SPAs if they are being disruptive, a common occurrence in this topic area. It appears that ArbCom did not consider this as fishing.

I note that today's ArbCom might think differently, this is where ArbCom's discretion is appropriate. The meta policy on CU did not include fishing, ArbCom back then included fishing but interpreted it loosely, perhaps the current practice is changed, and perhaps the future practice is changed. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 16:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Off-wiki canvassing is also a serious breach of trust, I think off-wiki communications evidence in SPI should be able to replace IP evidence, and should catch anyone with similar editing behavior as meatpuppetry, this can be partially solved by motion. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not convinced my paragraph above is necessary, as long as we have one person one vote, it is a decent wikidemocracy. It is inevitable that editors on the same side support each other, canvassing merely makes it a bit worse. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 10:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with @HJ Mitchell, it is unclear what new remedy could come out of ARBPIA 5 that can't be done here. If progress needs to be made, other than motion 1 and 2b, and motion for relaxing SPI as mentioned above, mentorship programs could be arranged for controversial editors, uncontroversial editors could apply to become a mentor, the mentor does not have to approve each edit but may provide daily feedback. Perhaps we need to informally solicit fresh ideas in talk page. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 21:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
  • The Committee recently changed the guidance here to the effect that word limits apply at ARCA (the same as at WP:ARC). However, because that change happened while this request is pending, and because it may be quite disruptive to start retroactively enforcing them here, my personal opinion is that we'll apply the old rules to this ARCA (i.e., no word limits). We'll let you know if that changes, but for now, no need to take any action with regard to word limits here. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Implementation notes

Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing. These notes were last updated by SilverLocust 💬 at 03:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Motion name Support Oppose Abstain Passing Support needed Notes
Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom 9 0 0 Passing ·
Motion 2a: Word limits 0 6 0 Cannot pass Cannot pass
Motion 2b: Word limits 10 0 0 Passing ·
Motion 2c: Word limits 6 3 0 Passing ·
Motion 3: Involved participants 0 8 0 Cannot pass Cannot pass
Motion 4: Enforced BRD 1 5 3 Cannot pass Cannot pass
Motion 5: PIA5 Case 6 3 1 Passing ·
Notes


Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Thank you to the AE admins for submitting this referral. As a procedural note I would suggest that we limit the parties to this request to האופה and other users whose behavior is under consideration here (perhaps the editors listed under "Other editors whose behavior was directly mentioned in the AE thread", though even that list may be too long).
    @האופה: It would be quite helpful to have your perspective here. I would also appreciate hearing further from the uninvolved admins as to what you'd like ArbCom to do — I see two buckets of possibilities: (1) Hold a full case or case-like structure to resolve the complex multiparty questions here, and/or (2) Remedies that only ArbCom can impose (e.g. Maybe even everyone is limited to 500-1000 words in any ARBPIA discussion. as ScottishFinnishRadish suggests). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:39, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • After reading the AE thread and the above statements, I think ArbCom will need to take some sort of action. I agree with L235 that I would like admins, both those involved in the AE and those that were not, to comment on whether it should be a full case or, if we are to resolve by motion, describe what ArbCom should enact to help admin find solutions to editor conduct issues. In response to how to refer a case to AE: instead of a magical incantation suggested by SFR, an admin can use a bolded vote at the beginning of a statement (something like "Refer to ArbCom", in bold) or as was done here, an uninvolved admin can determine that action as the consensus of the admin conversation. Z1720 (talk) 14:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Barkeep49: A bold vote isn't necessary, but it is an option. Since the question came up at AE here (in a humourous context that I chuckled at), and referrals to ArbCom from AE have not been common, I wanted to make sure there was clarification. Z1720 (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Barkeep49: Your answer was "correct" because it gave one path to refer an AE case to ArbCom/ARCA. My comment above was to highlight a second path to get the same result. Z1720 (talk) 15:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Support accepting this as a full case. Z1720 (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          • @Barkeep49: Sorry that I did not answer your question sooner, as the ping was lost on my end. As the instructions are written, the admin that closes the AE discussion determines the consensus of admin who commented on the case. If the closing admin determines that the consensus is an ARCA referral or a case request, it is the closing admin's responsibility to post the request at the appropriate venue. Bolded !votes sometimes help the closing admin determine the consensus. I would not rely on the clerks to open cases at ARCA because I am not sure how closely the clerk team is monitoring AE. Z1720 (talk) 18:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that action from ArbCom is necessary, and having reviewed everything over the past couple of days, looks like it may need to be a full case based on the complexity of the issue. - Aoidh (talk) 23:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This isn't much of an update, but I don't want to give the impression that this matter isn't being considered. I've been following the statements here and I am convinced a case is needed. At the latest, once the Historical elections Proposed decision is posted I intend to make this issue my primary focus as much as possible. I agree with User:Black Kite that the scope is important, though I'm not committed to any particular scope just yet. - Aoidh (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @BilledMammal: To your first question, while I have a good idea of what these issues are based on the statements and preliminary examinations of some of the articles/talk pages, evidence that certain issues are substantially more common and disruptive than others would be helpful in determining the scope. To the second question, I'd like to see parties decided on case creation, with parties added in the evidence phase only with compelling reason to do so. - Aoidh (talk) 20:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm open to SFR's suggestion that ArbCom handle the appeals. As to the word limit suggestion, it would at minimum have to be reworded before I'd support something like that. Short of possible scripts or off-wiki websites (most of which give inconsistent word count results), there's no easy way for a reasonable person to tell if an editor has contributed a given percentage of a discussion, especially if they're using a mobile device. - Aoidh (talk) 00:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @HJ Mitchell: A more effective route in handling this may be to have a case that focuses specifically on resolving the complex editor interaction issues that caused this to become an ARCA referral rather than jumping to a broader case that goes beyond those issues, or motions that do not address all of the issues in that AE discussion. A case with a set number of named parties that led to this arriving at ARCA would allow us to more thoroughly examine those issues and determine if this is something specific to those editors that might require sanctions, or if there may be more general actions that can be taken, in which case we can do so with a more thorough examination of the facts via a case. - Aoidh (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That sounds an awful lot like "let everyone throw mud at the wall and see what sticks". The combination of that approach and ArbCom feeling pressured to be seen to be doing something has historically led to poor or ineffectual outcomes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The reason this was referred here was because the interaction between a specific group of editors and any issues caused by this was deemed too complex for AE to examine and address. A proper examination is needed to adequately address any issues, and if we're going to make a decision based on this request, a more fully informed decision is going to be a more effective one. - Aoidh (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was hoping when I first joined ArbCom that we would not need to hold WP:PIA5, but it is starting to sound inevitable. Primefac (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Regarding adding parties to a case already underway - I cannot speak for the drafters, but I suspect that if a reasonable amount of evidence is provided that includes a non-named editor, they should probably be added as a party if their behaviour is shown to the similar to other named parties goes. Primefac (talk) 12:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • We probably need to hold PIA5. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 18:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Huldra: I invented ECP, so I am 100% with rule changes to make the cat herding easier -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 06:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There has been an enforcement request against האופה / HaOfa, 2024-08-11, 20:50 UTC. The reported user has not edited since. During their absence, the report became a discussion about general behavior of multiple users in the area, then expectably too much to handle at AE, and now we're here with multiple arbitrators indicating an interest in opening a case. What I personally don't entirely get is how all this happened without a single statement from the single reported editor, and why ArbCom's task in this situation isn't to evaluate only האופה's conduct and close the original AE report with or without a sanction against האופה. If we aren't able to evaluate a single party's conduct, we aren't able to hear a case either. And if we are, a case can be requested at WP:ARC, with a list of desired parties, evidence of disruptive behavior of each, evidence of prior dispute resolution attempts about each, and without a general unenforceable aspersion-casting "we need to remove everyone from the topic area". ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm very thankful for האופה's statement. As the discussion has moved completely away from האופה's individual behavior, I am also fine with none of the motions below being about האופה directly. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find SFR's proposals to be exciting ideas and suggest that at a minimum we propose them as structural reforms in the area, and pronto. I think there's an immediate problem that needs to be solved: this AE report. Resolving it is our necessary goal. I'm not opposed to holding a case here, and think that we probably should given that AE has done exactly what we told them they could and should do: refer cases to us. As much as I'm remiss to hold PIA5, it seems increasingly unavoidable. The world's most intractable problem continues to be our most intractable problem. Should this AE become PIA5 though? That's where I'm undecided and would be interested in more feedback on whether we can resolve the narrow origins of this AE report without also having to make it PIA5. It may benefit us to consider PIA5 independent of this AE request. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A good number of you continue to urge us to accept a case so as to hear PIA5. But I don't think we're in a great place to do that right now. With the loss of Barkeep, and generally low activity, I'm not sure we're cut out for the gargantuan task of PIA5. I think passing some motions at the moment is an effective stopgap measure. In a perfect world, I would have PIA5 be heard by next year's committee, as either its second or third case of the year. That way, the new members are seasoned enough to know the process and contribute, but we haven't yet lost participation to the mid-year slump. That also has the benefit of giving these motions a chance to work and see if that helps. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Levivich I like your idea for applying the RS restriction. But why a recent events carve out? And how would you suggest defining recent? Such a simple word, and yet now twice in one discussion we find ourselves having definitional problems :/ CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 15:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is an ongoing back and forth between numerous editors, and I think that needs to stop. Has this drawn out much longer than it should have? Yes. Is that an excuse to exchange barbs? No. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I apologise for the tardiness of my comments; I've been reading and thinking all along but I've had limited time to type out my thoughts, which requires a proper keyboard. I am reluctant to hold a PIA5, at least at this time and via this vehicle. I thought it was likely to come up and is one of the reasons I stood for ArbCom last year. It's likely we will end up holding it in some form but we need a clear scope and a clear question that ArbCom can answer. This is our most troublesome topic area and has already been through this process four times, so ArbCom may not have any tools left in its toolbox, having already created ARBECR out of whole new cloth. The Wikipedia dispute is a microcosm of the real-world dispute and a baker's dozen Wikipedia editors cannot resolve the entire Arab-Israeli conflict. On Wikipedia, the topic heats and cools with the real-world conflict and we are currently in a very large flare up due to horrific real-world events. I am sympathetic to the view that we have reached the limits of what can be achieved with the open, collaborative model given the proliferation of sockpuppetry in the area.

    A case with a sprawling scope and no clear question that ArbCom can answer is likely to be an enormous time sink and end up producing little long-term benefit. Instead, I think SFR's suggestions have merit for maintaining some semblance of order, even if it means ArbCom playing a more proactive role than it's used to and hearing appeals of CTOP sanctions or acting as AE admins en banc. I would also welcome direct case requests or AE referrals if there are allegations that a particular editor is behaving tendentiously (ie, the sum of their contributions is disruptive even if no one diff in isolation is sanctionable) and AE admins are unable to reach a conclusion. And something that stood out to me from AHJ (and which I've been reminded of, reading some of the comments above about how knowledgeable many Wikipedians are on their chosen subject) was the analysis of sources; I didn't think it was ArbCom's place to be doing that analysis itself, but but it could be valuable to have an agreed baseline of what the academic literature says, which (aside from being useful in itself) would then support (or refute) allegations of source misrepresentation. One final thing we could do is avoid the use of news media and primary reporting in articles on current events (this could potentially be done by consensus, or ArbCom writ, or part of the suite of sanctions administrators have available and applied article by article).

    Tl;dr: we need to do something, and we should welcome new ideas but a sprawling ARBPIA5 is unlikely to resolve anything satisfactorily. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Arbitrator motions

Trying something different to see if we can break the deadlock without spending months on a case. I think we can have concise community feedback on individual motions to help with readability. These are all without prejudice to a case, now or at a later date. I'm also open to other ideas. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just noting that I have seen these motions and am considering them along with all of the feedback from the community. Primefac (talk) 12:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom

When imposing a contentious topic restriction under the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic, an uninvolved administrator may require that appeals be heard only by the Arbitration Committee. In such cases, the committee will hear appeals at ARCA according to the community review standard. A rough consensus of arbitrators will be required to overturn or amend the sanction.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 04:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. More than happy to give AE another tool in the toolkit. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I wouldn't support making all appeals to ArbCom by default, but if this takes some of the workload off of AE or gives admins cover to make unpopular but necessary decisions, I'm happy to take on some of that burden. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Okay. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Z1720 (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  7. More options for AE, Cabayi (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Non-exclusively with motion 5. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 17:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Abstain
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 2a: Word limits

All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 500 words per discussion.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Support
Oppose
  1. I don't think an automatic 500 word limit would be beneficial. - Aoidh (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. In favour of 2c. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. prefer 2c ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Z1720 (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC) prefer 2b[reply]
  5. Cabayi (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 2b: Word limits

Uninvolved administrators may impose word limits on all participants in a discussion, or on individual editors across all discussions, within the area of conflict. These word limits are designated as part of the standard set of restrictions within the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic. These restrictions must be logged and may be appealed in the same way as all contentious topic restrictions.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 04:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Seems reasonable. There is many a discussion where an editor goes on to bludgeon a conversation by dint of replying endlessly and exhausting a books worth of words. Since bludgeoning can be quite hard to handle, I think a wordlimit is a useful tool that can be imposed on editors for whom that has been a problem. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I prefer this slightly more targeted approach over blanket word limits. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. While I don't think a broad word limit that is implemented by default is the most effective way to deal with issues, there is benefit in allowing uninvolved administrators to implement this as needed. - Aoidh (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  7. I think admin discretion is best instead of trying to preempt it. Some discussion might need more or less words. Z1720 (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Cabayi (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Non-exclusively with motion 5. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 17:45, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Abstain


Arbitrator discussion

Motion 2c: Word limits

All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 1,000 words per discussion. This motion will sunset two years from the date of its passage.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 04:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As I say below, given the alarm bells being rung above, and the threat of PIA5, I think we have to consider drastic measures. I have added a sunset clause because I really do think this is an extreme measure that shouldn't be in effect in perpetuity. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Okay, I think this might be the most useful proposal. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. WP:BLUDGEONing discussions with too many words helps nobody. And this is a topic area which is already drowning in excess words. Keep it concise. Cabayi (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support per the sunset clause. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Even with a sunset provision, a word restriction across the entire area of conflict is not something that should be done by default. - Aoidh (talk) 23:45, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Prefer admin to set the limits, not us. Z1720 (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per Z1720. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 17:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 3: Involved participants

Editors designated "involved" in the area of conflict may not register a bolded vote in formal discussions but may offer opinions and are encouraged to offer sources. Editors may designate themselves involved in the entire topic area or a subset of it, or may be designated by an uninvolved admin. Designations by administrators may be appealed in the same way as sanctions. Designation is not a suggestion that an editor's contributions are problematic.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Support
Oppose
  1. While I understand the intention behind this, in practice I don't think this would improve anything in the CTOP area. - Aoidh (talk) 18:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Ideally, the bold formatting has no effect anyway and it's all about the arguments. Restricting the use of formatting does not reduce (but perhaps increase) the amount of words people use to explain their position. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. There is no register of whom is involved --Guerillero Parlez Moi 10:05, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. That would only drive away the existing editors, some of whom are quite valuable in the topic area. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. No. Editors who are involved need to voice their opinion. Otherwise, this will create more arguments, socking, and other concerns. Z1720 (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  7. per above Cabayi (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Feels too bespoke and impractical. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk)
Abstain
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 4: Enforced BRD

Where a recent edit within the area of conflict is reverted for a substantive reason, it may not be reinstated by any editor until a discussion on the talk page reaches a consensus. Reverts made solely to enforce the extended-confirmed requirement are excluded from this requirement. This motion will sunset two years from the date of its passage.

For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 3 arbitrators abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Support
I understand this will slow the topic area down and be a general barrier to editing. But given the alarm bells being rung above, and the threat of PIA5, I think we have to consider drastic measures. I'd also vote for a time limited version of this; i.e., with a sunset clause of a year, and we'd have to renew it or just let it return to the status quo ante. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 03:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Worth trying for 2 years --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Noting that I will likely support any tweaks and changes to clarify "recent". Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Yes this will slow editing down (though I hope admins will exercise common sense when it comes to honest mistakes) but to a certain extent that's what we want. Reducing the urgency might help to lower the temperature. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. WP:ONUS and WP:BURDEN are important to me, and as "reverting" includes the restoration of content where verifiability is disputed, I can't support this. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. User:ToBeFree makes a good point. That this as written could be used to circumvent Wikipedia:Verifiability is a very valid concern. - Aoidh (talk) 23:31, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Agree with TBF. Z1720 (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per TBF Cabayi (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Agree with above. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
  1. Given that community voices strongly feel this is a bad idea, I remove my earlier support. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per CaptainEek. Primefac (talk) 13:05, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per Eek --Guerillero Parlez Moi 18:08, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 5: PIA5 Case

Following a request at WP:ARCA, the Arbitration Committee directs its clerks to open a case to examine the interaction of specific editors in the WP:PIA topic area. Subject to amendment by the drafting arbitrators, the following rules will govern the case:

  • The case title will be Palestine-Israel articles 5.
  • The initial parties will be:
  • Aoidh will be the initial drafter
  • The case will progress at the usual time table, unless additional parties are added or the complexity of the case warrants additional time for drafting a proposed decision, in which case the drafters may choose to extend the timeline.
  • All case pages are to be semi-protected.
  • Private evidence will be accepted. Any case submissions involving non-public information, including off-site accounts, should be directed to the Arbitration Committee by email to Arbcom-en@wikimedia.org. Any links to the English Wikipedia submitted as part of private evidence will be aggregated and posted on the evidence page. Any private evidence that is used to support a proposal (a finding of fact or remedy) or is otherwise deemed relevant to the case will be provided to affected parties when possible (evidence of off-wiki harassment may not be shared). Affected parties will be given an opportunity to respond.
For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 1 arbitrator abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted (case is scheduled to open on November 30) - HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 04:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Having looked through what has been discussed so far, this seems to be warranted. - Aoidh (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. With the caveat that I think the party list could be improved, and that the timing could be better (a thing partially in our control), per all my other statements here I think a case is necessary. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per much of the above. To clarify, I also want to look at offsite behavior and canvassing, which has been chronic for a while and been difficult to address with our current processes. The scope should be an examination of how to address these offsite issues, and how we can empower admins to act on them. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. It issue has become a continuous disruption that time has not resolved, so intervention is needed from ArbCom. Z1720 (talk) 12:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I don't think a case would be likely enough to have a more helpful result than the motions above, but it is almost guaranteed to require the parties and the committee to spend an unreasonable amount of time on reaching that result. And at the end of the case, the committee would be investing a lot of thoughts and discussions into presenting something else than "we didn't find a real solution" to the community, mostly unsuccessfully. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I'd like to see how the motions above work out before diving into a case. Cabayi (talk) 14:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Essentially per TBF. I'm not sure there are any more remedies available that would make enough of a difference to be worth the months acrimony and thousands of words a case would inevitably produce. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Abstain
  1. I am genuinely not sure what new remedies can come about from PIA5 that have not already been tried, or proposed above, but there is clearly an appetite from the community to hold a full case. I will of course participate if a case is run, but I do not feel strongly enough about not holding a case to stand in the way of my colleagues and the opinions of those who have commented above. Primefac (talk) 14:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrator discussion
  • This is being proposed as an attempt to directly address the issue that brought this here: the interaction between these editors was a complex issue that could not be handled at AE. AE turned to us to address this specific interaction issue and it would behoove us to examine it in detail rather than passing broad motions that do not address the substance of the referral. PeleYoetz was not part of the initial AE discussion but was the subject of the secondary discussion that was closed because it was seen as a companion thread. - Aoidh (talk) 19:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Levivich: The referral came to us because the interaction between a group of editors was deemed too complex for AE to properly address. This list is the result of those users discussed. As to your second question, RFAR would have also been a valid approach. However, this was brought to us via ARCA to refer the dispute to the full arbitration committee for final decision. I do not believe the other motions will adequately address the reason for the referral and a case would allow for the opportunity to make a more fully informed decision. I don't think a case was ever a foregone conclusion just because the issue was referred to us, but in this circumstance I think it's the better option we have in terms of examining and attempting to address the dispute AE referred to us. - Aoidh (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Levivich: It was deemed such by the administrators at AE, with comments by Barkeep49 on 13 August, SFR on 13 August, and RTH on 16 August as examples. A lack of sanctions does not preclude involvement in a potential ArbCom case, especially in a situation where the interactions between these editors were deemed too complex for AE to address. I also echo User:Vanamonde93's comments about the proposed named parties. - Aoidh (talk) 18:44, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Selfstudier: The proposed list was based on a reading of the discussion and is not intended to preclude others being named parties, including administrators. - Aoidh (talk) 02:48, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was also leaning towards a case, and had in fact written up an accept of the case but hadn't posted it yet. My thoughts are slightly different than the motion though, so below is my acceptance as previously written. I think the key difference is that I would want the case to open in like a month, so that we could stretch it into next year and gain the double committee bonus. Also, I'd want to probably see a bigger party list.
    All of what follows is what I previously wrote: Accept, insofar as this is a de facto case request. SFR's latest comment reflects and refocuses me on my earlier musing that there is an immediate issue to resolve. It is clear that AE has run out of steam to handle the morass of editor conduct issues in PIA. Of course, the committee seems to have run out of steam as well, since we are now down to a paltry 12 members, and 10 active. That is what led me to say that we aren't in a good place to accept right now because, well, we aren't. But doing nothing isn't helping either. PIA is a Gordian knot; and AE has run short of knot detanglers. I think many will be unhappy with our Alexandrian solution though.
    Above I said that this would be best as a case heard early next year. But there is one other solution. If we open the case before the year is up, and it runs into next year, the outgoing members can stay on the case, thereby swelling the number of members who can address this gargantuan task.
    As an additional logistical matter, I would have us open a fresh case request at ARC under the name PIA5, and solicit new statements, so as to focus discussion on who should the parties should be. I will volunteer to draft.
    I still want the reform motions to pass, and think that they will be helpful nonetheless. But the real issue before us, the one we are elected to hear, is of chronic editor misconduct. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In case folks didn't see my preamble, this was previously unposted because it was not my final thought on the subject; I was still ruminating. I wrote up an accept to see if I could make a strong argument in favor, and indeed I could. But I was sitting on it because I wasn't sure that was the right path. I know it's rare to post a "draft" vote, but given that my idea of a case didn't quite align with the motion, I wanted to put it out there as part of the conversation. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 23:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Levivich You question why this is being brought at ARCA and not ARC. This is coming to us as a referral, and I want AE to feel like they can refer cases to us. We said we were willing to take AE referrals, so this is a test of our commitment. But I agree that this referral as brought has not created a particularly thorough list of parties. My thought on how to fix that would be to say okay, well how about we as ArbCom open an ARC based on an AE referral, and we call it PIA5, and aim it at soliciting thoughts on parties. That avoids one of the real issues that ARC has: it's a thankless and unforgiving task to start a case request. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there is to be case, I'd be willing to be a co-drafter. My main concern is that I'm still not convinced that there is a lot that ArbCom can do that will actually improve editing conditions in the topic area. Some of the motions I proposed above might go some way to alleviating some of the problems, but a case is likely to take several months and produce tens of thousands of words. We may well end up removing some of the more prominent participants from the topic area but I don't envisage that having much effect—the most likely scenario is that they are simply replaced by other editors and everything continues much as it was because this is an emotive topic area not short of editors with strong, heartfelt opinions held in good faith but vehemently opposed by others with different opinions held equally strongly and in equally good faith. We can't solve the real-life Arab-Israeli conflict on Wikipedia—that will continue to rumble on with occasional spikes in activity (like the one we've been experiencing for the last year) until the politicians decide to do something to fix it—we can only attempt to enforce site policy and maintain some sense of order. That said, a case with a scope like Aoidh proposes might strike the balance between major time sink and producing actionable evidence of long-term misconduct (and alleviating some of the problems at AE), so I'm undecided at present. I'll wait a few days for feedback from the proposed parties, AE admins, and any third parties who have helpful suggestions. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am leaning no. Has there been a major change in this topic area since the motions above have been posted? Z1720 (talk) 00:00, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't believe the issues have become stale or that the motions will substantively address the reasons this request came to us from AE. I initially wrote this motion around the time the other motions were first posted and wanted to post it at that time, but have only today confirmed that I will be able to dedicate the time required to be a drafter in this. I agree that something like this should have been posted sooner and for that I apologize, but I didn't want to volunteer to draft without being able to fully commit. - Aoidh (talk) 00:13, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wouldn't extended-confirmed protection be more fitting for a case in this topic area than semi-protection? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is passing and we're discussing the next steps such as the other two drafters. - Aoidh (talk) 23:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Robert McClenon We have picked drafters for this case (myself, @Aoidh and @HJ Mitchell) and we should have this ARCA closed tomorrow, and will implement the passing motions aside from #5 immediately. The drafters still need to finalize the case timeline and list of parties, as well as the scope, and deal with some general logistical problems around opening a case. We appreciate the community's outstanding patience as we tackle a gargantuan task with a limited set of Arbs. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tryptofish We will have an updated party list out soon, which will be announced at ACN contemporaneously with the close of this ARCA. We are also intending to delay the opening of the case by a couple weeks (for reasons we'll elaborate), so there will be time to suggest additional parties if the new list is inadequate. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement referral: Nableezy, et al

Folded into PIA5. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 04:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Initiated by Barkeep49 at 19:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Palestine-Israel articles 4 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Reason for referral

Pursuant to WP:CTOP#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee, two Arbitration Enforcement threads naming Nableezy (thread 1, thread 2) have closed with a rough consensus to refer the dispute to the full arbitration committee for final decision.

Lists of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Involved AE participants
Referring administrators
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Information about AE referral

The first thread was headed towards consensus but was stalled over a number of issues, including what to do with Nableezy. I interpreted the consensus in the second thread to refer as applying to both threads given the uncertainty over what (if anything) to do with Nableezy and the stalled progress. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Barkeep49

A motivating factor for me to refer this was this comment by Guerillero. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IOHANNVSVERVS at least one uninvolved administrator proposed sanctions that would apply to you at the first AE thread. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@IOHANNVSVERVS [71] [72] Barkeep49 (talk) 19:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Black Kite, I agree it is not a neutral name. As you know well from your involvement there Arbitration Enforcement names are never neutral when it comes to discussing specific user behavior. Given that the name of both threads being referred were after Nableezy that's clearly what is being referred. I went "rogue" with the "et al" because I don't think Nableezy is the largest problems in the two threads being referred - and said as much there - but that is what's being referred. I will say more below about this. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

Nableezy et al is an amazing case title. That or "What to do about Nableezy?" I think the complaint against me from BM was utterly devoid of anything resembling evidence of something I have actually done wrong, and I categorically reject the idea that I do anything resembling "civil POV-pushing", but sure examine 40 diffs going back three years from me if you like. I'm sure there's something I've messed up in that time, but I generally think I edit in a way that I believe to be consistent with Wikipedia's policies and I am completely comfortable justifying my edits. Do I think that is merited? I promised I wouldnt laugh on Wikipedia anymore, so Ill just say respectfully no. nableezy - 22:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't object to the title, it made me chuckle. A chuckle is not an out loud laugh so I hope I am not accused of rudeness here. nableezy - 23:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BilledMammal

As a quick addendum, just seeing the evidence laid out and perhaps a "reminded" or "admonished" remedy may be enough in many cases. Unconscious bias is a very real phenomenon, so it's entirely possible some editors who are doing this type of thing are not even doing so intentionally, and just making them more aware of it may be enough to solve the problem.
— User:Seraphimblade

I fully agree with this; some editors fail to recognize their own POV, and if they are otherwise unproblematic, contributing productively elsewhere etc, then pointing that they have a POV they need to manage might be sufficient. BilledMammal (talk) 01:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chess: I don't think your summary is accurate - in particular, the following doesn't happen:

If enough editors follow this pattern, "massacre" becomes acceptable for Israelis and not Palestinians. This is because Nableezy is consistently outnumbered by editors that want to add "massacre".

Between 2022 and January 2024 there were eleven RM's discussing whether to use "massacre" for Israeli victims, with ten finding consensus against. There isn't a pattern that would justify Nableezy switching their stance - which is why I believe the fact they did between February 2024 and June 2024, but only for when Palestinians are victims, and then back a few days later in June 2024 for Israeli victims, is evidence of systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view. BilledMammal (talk) 05:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chess: I’ll try to get something for you. BilledMammal (talk) 13:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zero0000: No thanks for or mention of my assistance with that analysis? BilledMammal (talk) 13:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS

@Barkeep, For what reason am I being considered "involved or directly affected" in this? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep, could you please provide the diff. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep, I'm not mentioned in those diffs. Neither was I one of the editors who participated in the "round-robin edit war". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49, please explain your statement that an uninvolved administrator proposed sanctions that would apply to me or else please strike/modify it. This is the second time you've made this statement and then ignored my objection to its accuracy. [1]
My behaviour in that content dispute was exemplary, making a bold edit and then opening a talk page discussion when reverted. I know better than to expect any sort of positive comments from admins on this site but at the very least please don't say that sanctions were proposed against me when they weren't. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alaexis

Statement by Andrevan

I opened the thread due to civility. I don't think it's civil to accuse me of tendentious, disruptive, gaming, wikilawyering, etc. without any evidence simply because all I did was revert back to the status quo, twice, separated by 7 days, and then I opened an RFC after prompting to do so and confirmation by SFR that my interpretation was correct. NOCON means status quo and that is confirmed by a related discussion about ONUS. All I'm looking for in my filing was these ASPERSIONS not to be made. Even if there is disagreement about my action, there is absolutely no evidence that falls under disruptive, tendentious, gaming, etc. My action was normal and rational. Those hyperbolic accusations are indeed not civil and not backed by evidence. Yes, Nableezy and I have had disputes before and I also tried to resolve it on his talk page, but he banned me from his talk page. I don't need an apology but I don't think such obvious violations of good faith and civility should be permitted. Andre🚐 19:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

Thanks to Sean Hoyland, I can report that there are 10 articles related to the 2023-present war that have "massacre" in the title. Eight of them are about massacres of Jews: Alumim massacre, Be'eri massacre, Kfar Aza massacre, Kissufim massacre, Netiv HaAsara massacre, Nova music festival massacre, and Psyduck music festival massacre. Three of them are about massacres of Palestinians: Shadia Abu Ghazala School massacre, Flour massacre, and Nuseirat refugee camp massacre. (Corrections, please!) Meanwhile, the number of dead Palestinians is about 30 times the number of dead Israelis. It seems that these nefarious POV-pushers who are forcing "massacre" preferentially into the titles of articles about massacres of Palestinians are not having too much success. Zerotalk 13:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: Until now I didn't notice that you had posted results too. I acknowledge they are equivalent in this case. Also, if possible I prefer results from someone who is not a party. This response may be deleted after a day or two. Zerotalk 03:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gripe. It is concerning how several administrators have suggested that ArbCom's role is to go on a fishing expedition to search for reasons to sanction editors. Of course they will deny that's what they wrote, but in reality it is. The editors who face sanctions will not be the newly arrived activists and socks large and small, who are the main problem at the moment, but the experienced expert editors who are the backbone of the project. Zerotalk 09:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Makeandtoss

I think this referral has two fundemental issues, that of the proposed scope and methodology.

Scope: There were two AE threads concerning different issues that were combined, having shared a few editors [73] [74]. Even in the first AE thread, it was an individual report that was later expanded to involve myself and others, each with varying degrees of involvement and behaviors, as was elaborated here by one admin. Here is a chronology of that first thread. So I have to agree with IOHANNVSVERVS' concerns.

Methodology: The proposed methodology in the second AE report filed against Nableezy is quite problematic, wanting to somehow police content, which goes against the scope of arbitration that does "not make editorial statements or decisions about how articles should read." Editors, while abiding by guidelines and reliable sources, are not necessarily expected to be totally unbiased towards certain viewpoints (neutrality), but more importantly they are expected to cooperate in good faith in dispute resolution whenever their content is challenged (objectivity).

In short, accounting for the nuances here is important while considering whether to accept this case in its proposed form, as otherwise there is a risk of turning this venue into a content committee and of assigning equal liability to different parties. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Snowstormfigorion

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Statement by Valereee

WP:SEALIONING is incredibly tedious to prove. It can easily take 20 diffs -- sometimes more to show that the issue is ongoing or widespread -- and even if you've brought those diffs to AE or to ANI, no one wants to assess them because that many diffs are daunting to go through. One almost has to be involved at an article talk to understand the scope of the problem there. But it is a very real and very frustrating problem for well-intentioned editors working anywhere, much less at CTOPs, and as a project we need to find some way to handle this.

IOHANNVSVERVS, you aren't mentioned by name in those diffs themselves, but you were among the editors being discussed/referred to in those diffs because of your inclusion in the case diffs, which was done by name. The first (fairly major and likely controversial) removal at a CTOP was by you. That doesn't mean you've done anything wrong, but it's best you're aware and make a statement. Valereee (talk) 20:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Seraphimblade

I've been around long enough to remember when ArbCom would handle a lot more cases than it now does. To a substantial degree, it's good that it doesn't need to happen any more, as that often means the community is able to resolve things which at that time would have been kicked up to ArbCom. But there are these particular types of issues, where the allegation is not some egregious bad act, or even a series of less egregious but still rather obvious ones. Rather, the assertion is that an editor's sum total of editing amounts to POV pushing or other types of difficult to detect and difficult to prove misbehavior. I think the format of an arbitration case, where evidence can be collected over time, from multiple editors, and examined over substantially more time and by substantially more eyes than an AN/AE report, would more often be the way to examine those. Other community venues are just not well-equipped to handle something of that nature. We know things like what's alleged here happen. I don't know if they happened in this case or not; I'd have to look through a huge quantity of edits over a long time span to figure that out. So, I think this should be taken, probably as a case, and I don't think its scope should be restricted to Nableezy. I would be astonished if only one person in this particular topic area had a pattern of behavior like what's alleged here. I am aware that something like this would require carefully treading the line of "ArbCom rules on conduct, not content", but again, ArbCom has substantially more time to craft something which does adhere to that while still addressing the underlying issues than AE does. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a quick addendum, just seeing the evidence laid out and perhaps a "reminded" or "admonished" remedy may be enough in many cases. Unconscious bias is a very real phenomenon, so it's entirely possible some editors who are doing this type of thing are not even doing so intentionally, and just making them more aware of it may be enough to solve the problem. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde93

  • I urge ARBCOM to look into this, because systematic subtle NPOV violations require evidence that is too large in scope for AE.
  • I urge ARBCOM not to look at this superficially, and to examine, in addition to the language editors have used, whether they are engaging in discussions in good faith; whether they are misrepresenting sources; and whether they are treating Wikipedia as a battleground.
  • I believe ARBCOM needs to examine behavior at AE and other dispute resolution fora in addition to behavior within the topic. The manner in which several participants of multiple POVs have jumped to AE to defend or attack each other has me concerned.
  • I am inclined to think this should be folded into the extant PIA ARCA, though perhaps I am behind the times as to where that stands. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ealdgyth

I urge ArbCom to not try to dodge this a second time. Yes, I understand that it is hard to gather the energy to face such a sure-to-be-contentious case. But, it is clearly not going to go away. I can't see any of the motions from the above referral that would have helped here with this tangled and fractious series of requests. Like Vanamonde, I urge you to not limit yourselves to a narrow scope or a narrow set of editors. As an editor who was involved with the WWII, Jews, and Poland case, I have to say it appears to me (as an admin looking into the area through the AE lens instead of as an editor in the topic area (thankfully!)) that some of the same battleground behavior is taking place. I do not know if there are the same issues of source misrepresentation and other types of editing problems, but I suspect that there is at least some POV pushing taking place, and AE is not well equipped to investigate that nor large-scale battleground behavior when there are entrenched sides that back each other up. (The irony of so many calls of "Icewhiz sock! Icewhiz sock!" also resounding in this topic area is not lost on me either... but whether those calls are justified or not, I leave to uninvolved checkusers who are experienced sockhunters). I do suggest a more neutral case title if it's accepted, however, if only to spare yourselves comments from editors that the case title is biasing the case. (A further note is that I have no desire to ever edit in this topic area and will not be subjecting myself to the source-article text analysis I did for the WWWI/Jews/Poland case. Once is enough). Ealdgyth (talk) 23:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a note to Parabolist - as far as I am concerned, BM's filing of the AE request is as much a reason to refer this to ArbCom as the alleged misbehavior of the editor filed against. The tit-for-tat filings and the constant filling up of AE requests by comments from editors involved in the area but not in the exact events being discussed at the AE filing is one of the worst problems in the area, at least for the uninvolved admins trying to figure out what happened - any AE filing is very likely to end up filled with too much commentary that tends to go off in too many directions, which buries the admins in so much chaff that everything is obscured. Ealdgyth (talk) 23:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sir Kenneth Kho

This seems like a pretty straightforward case. I interpret "may refer an arbitration enforcement request to the Arbitration Committee for final decision" as in case ArbCom does not wish to deal with the request, it may pass a motion to remand the matter to AE. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 20:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other than AE admins, very few people are involved in this case, are we sure that PIA5 is actually urgent? In addition, the canvassing RFAR apparently has little merit, the same goes for this case per Zero0000. If anything, this further proves the lack of coherent case in this topic area, ArbCom can't do much other than passing motions to cool down the temperature. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 17:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly share Zero0000's concerns on their "Gripe" section, this AE referral as framed will only target experienced editors, and the same goes with PIA5 motion that examines "interactions of specific editors". I hope ArbCom can use this referral to have a fresh look whether a new case helps or hurts this topic area. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 17:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish (N, et al)

I'll start by thanking Barkeep49 and the other admins for doing something to get the ball rolling again, as well as for all the difficult work they do at AE. I really mean that. Anything that will get more attention, serious attention, from ArbCom would be a step forward.

Because I've been saying (with regrettable vagueness) in the earlier case request that I intended to present evidence about two editors in particular, if given the opportunity, I'll say now (with more regrettable vagueness, but I simply do not want to buy myself a ton of grief), that neither of those two editors has been listed here. But I still see benefit to ArbCom working with what's here, for now. Let's accomplish what we can. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Black Kite

"Nableezy et al"? Well there's a neutral case title if I've ever seen one (slaps forehead). Black Kite (talk) 22:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Parabolist

This sets a terrible precedent. Very few people, especially the admins, seemed to think BM's report was anything more than a normal content dispute. But because it was so long and full of so much chaff, it got called "too much for AE" and an admin helpfully filed escalated it to Arbcom with basically the idea of 'lets finally deal with this guy'? We should all be as skilled at weaponizing AE as BM, something everyone seems to forget he was warned about some time back. Parabolist (talk) 23:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chess

Here's the issue I see:

  • Some editors with questionable understandings of policy take a position, such as the term "massacre" being an WP:NPOVNAME.
  • Editors comment at RMs when this benefits Israeli perspectives, e.g. Calling for "massacre" to be added for attacks on Israelis. Nableezy focuses their effort on these RMs.
  • Nableezy does not bother to comment at RMs when the term "massacre" is added to attacks on Palestinians.
  • If enough editors follow this pattern, "massacre" becomes acceptable for Israelis and not Palestinians. This is because Nableezy is consistently outnumbered by editors that want to add "massacre".
  • Nableezy becomes angry at this pattern, and interprets this as a global consensus.
  • Nableezy switches only to commenting on RMs when the term "massacre" would be removed from attacks on Palestinians.
  • Nableezy no longer comments on removing massacre from attacks on Israelis.
  • This is interpreted as POV-pushing because Nableezy is imagining a consensus that doesn't actually exist. It's a mirage created by editors that ignore our policies.

The current proposal I have is Draft:Manual of Style/Israel- and Palestine-related articles. I believe we need a centralized discussion board that is empowered to create global consensus on principles in the topic area. Then we need to make that consensus easily citeable in a discussion. When Nableezy is confronted with editors saying Attackers butchering people person-to-person on the ground rather than an airstrike. The former are frequently referred to as massacres in English; the latter are not. WP:COMMONNAME., [75] it should be possible to just cite MOS:PIA and the closer must judge based on whether or not the arguments showed the term "massacre" was used in most reliable sources. Instead, we get cases where Iskandar323 loses a discussion over the term "massacre" as applied to Israelis because they are the only one opposing the reasoning that this should be called a massacre since it was an attack on civilians.[76]

Such a discussion board would empower BilledMammal to call out double standards in a topic area in a way that doesn't target individual editors. Double standards can be prevented by discussion closers acting on content instead of by WP:AE acting on editors. During this case, ArbCom should focus on trying to create better processes for resolving content disputes rather than try to punish editors for their conduct. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: Any chance you can update your table with the outcomes of each RM? I've just been clicking on the links to every RM and it's hard to see the pattern you're describing. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bluethricecreamman

Statement by Huldra2

pr Biladmammal's is evidence of systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view: Biladmammal has pointed our attention to massacre-articles, but that is only one area. When it comes to civilian deaths the number of Palestinian casualties are 10-100 times as many as Israeli Jewish civilian casualties. (see Israeli–Palestinian conflict#Fatalities) But you wouldn't know that from reading Wikipedia, as wp editors for years have created articles about Jewish victims, but not about Palestinian victims. Huldra (talk) 23:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, for all of you who thinks that there is a lot of "noice" in the IP-area of wikipedia at the moment (I feel there are more WP:AE, WP:ARCA and WP:ARC-reports than ever before in my 19+ years here): the number of reader (and editors) shot through the roof after Oct 7, 2023, just a couple that I recently edited Al-Kabri: [77] Beit Iksa:[78] Al-Khisas[79] the page-views went up 3-10-fold even on articles not on the Gaza Strip. On Gaza it was dramatic increase: Beit Hanoun from ca 300 views pr month to 45,000 views [80]. So of course wikipedia will reflect this,

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Arbitration enforcement referral: Nableezy, et al: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
  • Thank you for bringing us a more specific request. Just to get out ahead: please keep statements concise and consider whether they add value here or would be better as evidence in a case (if we have one). Statements at this point should briefly state what you think ArbCom should look at in relation to these parties and what remedies would be helpful. Thank you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement referral: Nableezy, et al: Arbitrator views and discussion

Clarification request: Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee

Functionality added. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 01:01, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Initiated by Barkeep49 at 19:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
A consensus of administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard may refer an arbitration enforcement request to the Arbitration Committee for final decision through a request for amendment.

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by Barkeep49

Neither of the existing templates for filing something at this forum really works well for referrals from the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard. I ask that the Arbitration Committee and/or its clerks create a template better suited to that purpose. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't trying to prove my point (seriously WP:POINT is not my style) but I will just note this typo and the fact that if we'd have had a real template I wouldn't have made it.... Barkeep49 (talk) 20:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both Nableezy and Black Kite objected above to my naming the referral after the shared name of the two reports. I am sympathetic to what they are saying - as this committee knows I argued against such names of individuals while on the committee. That name was my attempt to do what the CT procedures say - refer specific requests (in this case both named after a single editor despite involving others). If there was a template, ArbCom's preference for how to name such referrals could also be made clear; perhaps ArbCom wants it named after the case being referred rather than the individual or perhaps it wants it to match what was at AE. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Name of user in question.
  • Procedural background: Link to the discussion. Underlying request (AE request vs. appeal).
  • Decision to refer to ARCA: Brief 1-2 sentence summary of admins' justification for referral. Note any dissenting opinions. Do the referring admins want ArbCom to do anything in particular?
Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 06:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Motions

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Southasianhistorian8

No action. Everyone should keep in mind that within contentious topics, you must edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and: adhere to the purposes of Wikipedia, comply with all applicable policies and guidelines, and follow editorial and behavioural best practice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Southasianhistorian8

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:ARBIPA
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 00:22, 2024 October 26 Raises temperature of an existing talk page discussion discussion with multiple personal attacks, accuses me of "preemptive[ly] poisoning the well", of "nearing WP:BULLYING conduct" and "trying to muffle Indian viewpoints and opinions".
  2. 00:38, 2024 October 26 Ignores WP:ONUS to restore content that was removed without first getting consensus to restore the content. Continues the "muzzle" PA against me in the edit summary.
  3. 01:39, 2024 October 26 Second revert in an hour, reverts my attempt at a compromise with further personal attacks/WP:ABF in the edit summary about my motives ("and intentionally caricutrarizing [sic] his quote".
  4. 01:41, 2024 October 26 Gives me a level-4 (!) template further accusing my attempt at compromise as "WP:POINTy" (aka disruptive editing).
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 20:47, 2022 May 30 Indeff'd for abusing multiple accounts in the area of conflict as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Suthasianhistorian8/Archive. Unblocked in December 2022 following a standard offer.
  2. 19:06, 2021 November 11 48hrs for edit warring in the area of conflict.
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:31, 2021 November 27 (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

SAH appears to have little to no good faith towards me, making PAs and airing old dirty laundry in an article talk page discussion which prior to their arrival had remained focused on content(Permlink to version of talk page prior SAH posting). They take issue with my use of the phrases "sour grapes" and "cherry picked" when referring to content in my edit summaries, but then turn around and make PAs and aspersions in theirs. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  03:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I'm here because I don't know how else to respond to "repeated-PAs-on-CTOP-article-talkpage-into-level-4-template" and if the statement in defense of evidence of PAs being made is to exceed their wordcount entirely on the other party, then that is pretty clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that is not conductive to editing on this project. SAH's ignores their own behaviour entirely, bringing up misassumptions about stale behaviour, either twisting my words or outright fabricating them.

but you omit that you copied content that I had written in that article into Khalistan movement without attribution,[81] so I don't know why you're all of a sudden questioning my sincerity in there? - I restored content rather than adding it for the first time which I believed I had.[82]

"Ghost, in his own words..." not only is this stale, this is an outright lie. For it to be "in my words" I'd have to have actually said the alleged statement, which I did not nor did I even attempt to infer.
Reporting an unsolicited apology is a low blow, doubly so that it's stale.
SAH also accuses others of POV-pushing[83], so mentioning here about my general comment on how "pro-India skewing" should be a PA doesn't seem fair. They also call out others for not heeding WP:ONUS[84] so their failure to do so themself tonight is also dubious. These two diffs also happen to have both occurred at Khalsa, where SAH was trying to restore content critical of that Sikh community.
I believe, given the above information that a topic ban from Sikhism, the Khalistan movement and related topics, broadly construed for SAH be considered. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  06:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish: Thanks for your time. My main issue that led me here is that yes, this was 100% a content dispute prior to SAH entering the dispute with diff #1 in which SAH wants me to discuss content, but with an entire first paragraph dedicated to a character assassination/repeated PAs towards me, then giving me a level 4 template on my talk page in diff #4 threatening to have me blocked for attempting a compromise on some of the content.
The Canada-India row relates to the murder of a Sikh man in Canada who advocated for an independent Sikh state in India. Canada has accused India of involvement in the murder. Pages related to the row have been attacked by IP- and low-edit-count-users, often adding content which pushes the POV of the Indian government
SAH's contributions show that they are a SPA with a focus on Sikh topics. They are heavily involved in removing content that they see as pro-Sikh,[85] and adding content that they see as anti-Sikh.[86], including content directly related to the Canada-India row.[87]
As an SPA (who has also taken the Standard Offer, which includes point 3), SAH should take care to not turn content disputes in their chosen topic area (which they are aware has CTOP status) personal by accusing those they disagree with of poisoning the well/bullying/etc in a post in which they are asking that person to engage on content. Rather, this can be seen as trying to intimidate another editor (me) out of the topic area, and I hope that isn't the case. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) What I should have done differently was explain to the editor (which, as you point out, only had four edits) how I felt that the content that they added amounted to "pro-India sour grapes", and with time to look back, acknowledge that I should have done this without using the phrase in question. However, SAH accusing me of "poisoning the well" on the article talk page in response to this is much worse because it is a direct PA directed at another editor at a venue which should be 100% focused on content. If SAH had an issue with my conduct, a message (NOT a template) on my talk page laying it out would have been much more appreciated.
2) Your "diff 2" is identical to your "diff 1" so I assume you're talking about this in response to this? The comments I added were said in this source which I mistakenly forgot to add and had been reverted and templated before I realized that error. Adding quotes verbatim is a common practice in Canadian politics articles (I point to Pierre Poilievre as an example), especially when content is disputed, so if it's against policy, fine, but again, a level-4 template is unjustified as a first warning. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  19:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[88]


Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Southasianhistorian8

This is a completely unnecessary escalation, which I believe to be an extension of Ghost's firm convictions that Wikipedia ought to amplify pro-Canadian narratives and vitiate Canada's opponents. The bizarre thing about this conflict is that I'm a Canadian citizen myself, and have been living in Canada for over 95% of my life. My stance is that Wikipedia should not overtly amplify/muzzle pro-Canadian or pro-Indian narratives respectively, but neutrally explain both sides' arguments.

  • Posted ridiculous, inflammatory content on his user page ("NEVER VOTE CONSERVATIVE FUCK THE CONVOY Resisting the Christo-fascist takeover of North America") and incited unnecessary arguments on the 2022 leadership election t/p-[89], yet has the audacity to scold others for affronting his biases and convictions.
  • One the page Air India Flight 182, Ghost, was removing hard facts from the article on the basis that the edits affronted his pro-Canadian sensibilites-[90], contravening Wikipedia's policies on NOTCENSORED. He then extensively edit-warred with numerous editors, yet dishes out the same accusations against others-[91]
  • He then basically admitted to following a user whom he was engaged in a dispute with, and left him a message on Twitter-[92]. It's fair to infer that the message he left was likely antagonistic in nature, given the heated edit war that preceded and his need to give an apology.
  • [93]- Here, he replaced my sentence which was neutrally worded and attributed, and replaced it with an obvious caricature of Verma's quote in a not so thinly veiled attempt to undermine India's position. He used this article, despite not citing it correctly, in which an interview transcript was provided below. It should be noted first and foremost that an interview transcript is a primary source, and the quote "I also know that some of these Khalistani extremists and terrorists are deep assets of CSIS. So I'm giving that accusation again; I'm not giving you an evidence.", or a summary or analysis of the quote was not provided beyond the transcript, hence rendering it unusable for inclusion in Wikipedia as per WP:PRIMARY. Secondly, if you read beyond that quote, it's clear that Verma was making the point that Canadian officials had not provided evidence implicating India's involvement in the murder, and he was basically using the same logic against them. It was an undeniable and objective violation of WP:NPOV, and it justified a harsh warning.

I also suspect that the last diff was GhostofDanGurney trying to bait me into reverting what was an obviously bad edit, so he could entrap me and report me. The diffs above are the tip of the iceberg, but I believe it is demonstrably obvious that GhostofDanGurney is far, far too aggressive and juvenile for Wikipedia.

Ghost has once again levied a false allegation against me, claiming that I copied content written by him on Hardeep Singh Nijjar to the Khalistan movement-This is an outright and outrageous lie. The paragraph starting with "According to a Globe and Mail report published one year after Nijjar's death," was my own summary of the Globe report, it was not written by Ghost. I was the one who originally added the following content to the Nijjar page right after the Globe came out-"The report further claims that some Canadian security experts did not believe India's claims about him, remarking that there was inadequate evidence to arrest Nijjar and that India had a "reputation for torqueing evidence to fit with political objective". This was done well before GhostofDanGurney's modifications.
Ghost is basically trying to kick me off a topic area where I've helped counter vandalism and POV pushing for the past 2 years, all because I disagreed with him and objected to his persistent personal attacks and rude edit summaries. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Admins, I apologize if I went over the word limit as I have zero experience in A/E, but I strongly request you to take action against Ghost's allegation that I plagiarized his work. For Christ's sake, June comes before July, no? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish:, thank you for your response.
With regards to GhostofDanGurney labelling me a SPA, it is important to note that I did make mistakes during my early time here on Wikipedia, no denying that, but I think context is crucial. Literally a week or so into my joining Wikipedia in 2021, another SPA called HaughtonBrit through his account MehmoodS began hounding me to an extreme degree, provoking me into frivolous content disputes, essentially just trying to make my time on Wikipedia as hellish as possible so he could perpetuate his relentless Sikh nationalist views. The harassment from that sockmaster only just recently abated after numerous SPAs were blocked from 2023-late 2024. How would any other editor feel if they were being stalked and harassed for 3 years straight?
This topic area, because it's unfamiliar to a lot of people, has a major, major problem with POV pushing, including fabricating claims to make it appear as if the Sikh religion militarily dominated other groups; the POV spans articles about battles in the 1600s up to the recent Insurgency in Punjab.It also includes the pushing of Hinduphobia and Islamophobia, particularly pushing anti-Afghan views and articles (whom the Sikhs fought for a period of time), and basically publishing hagiographies of certain religious figures through poor sourcing or other unsavoury methods.
I'm not claiming that I'm perfect but I do tend to carefully analyze sources and their reliability and only include content into pages once I'm confident that the source is high quality and is somewhat DUE. The diff in which GoDG claims I added content critical of the Sikh community-[94] is sourced through a prominent university press and the CBC, so I don't see a problem there, though I'm willing to engage on the t/p.
Regarding the C-I diplomatic row article, I do acknowledge that my initial response on the t/p and level 4 warning (the latter was unintentional as I have a hard time navigating the Twinkle box for warnings) probably wasn't the right way to go about things, but I was upset that Ghost made personal attacks against me in his edit summary, claiming I was cherry-picking, and I believe Ghost was using unnecessary edit summaries beforehand as well. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 18:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I stated in my ending bullet point above, the quote GhostofDanGurney used I'm not giving you any evidence of that was found in the CTV's article interview transcript, not in the main body of the article. Including a conclusion/implication from a selective quote in an interview transcript constitutes WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, because we have to rely on a reputable, secondary source to aggregate the information from the interview and concisely present the relevant information that hopefully does not misrepresent what was said and analyzes any statements through fact-checking. If the quote was in the main body of the article, it would've been a different story. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 11:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I striked some of my commentary on the t/p as it wasn't the right way to go about things. Also striked the level 4 warning on Ghost's t/p. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 12:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Srijanx22

Canada–India diplomatic row has been created just today and needs improvement. The highlighted disputes should be handled on the talk page without either of the users commenting on each other. It would be better if they can get along. I don't see any need for sanctions as of yet. Srijanx22 (talk) 09:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Southasianhistorian8

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I'm looking into this now, but there's a lot to dig into. I'm not a fan of the level 4 warning, or a lot of the language used, but much of this seems to be a content dispute. This edit linked in the original report is interpretation of a primary source, but you're transgressing beyond reason isn't the right response. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A lot of this looks to be a content dispute, albeit a heated one with some less than ideal behavior. Maybe it is because of some of my unfamiliarity with the topic, but I'm not seeing any obvious POV pushing from the editor reported, or GoDG. I'm not a fan of pro-India sour grapes, but that was also a revert of what looks to me like POV pushing (even with bold text to show what you should be mad about) from an editor with four edits. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    GhostOfDanGurney, diff 1 contains some pointed (more so than I'd like) commentary, but that was after your characterization of other edits as pro-India sour grapes. Is your use of that phrasing any better or worse than I want to point out that it is unacceptable to cast aspersions in edit summaries, in what appears to be a preemptive poisoning the well tactic to dissuade others from adding content which you personally deem unacceptable.?
    Diff 2 was in response to this, where you added After Verma's expulsion, he alleged in an interview on CTV News that "some of these Khalistani extremists and terrorists are deep assets of CSIS", but explicitly told the interviewer, Vassy Kapelos, "I'm not giving you any evidence on that". with this source. That source doesn't mention that quote, so it does appear that you engaged in interpretation of a primary source, and the wording but explicitly told the interviewer is heavily loaded with implication not found in the source cited. Was that worth a level 4? Probably not, but I don't think it's severe enough an issue to sanction at AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by IdanST

Appeal is declined. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user
IdanST (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – — xDanielx T/C\R 17:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sanction being appealed
1 month block; see this thread on user's talk page.
Administrator imposing the sanction
ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Notification of that administrator
2024-10-27

Statement by IdanST

I was blocked for 1 month. I was not aware of the edits on which the admin ScottishFinnishRadish based the violations leading to this block because the admin failed to inform me. However, after a couple of weeks, I recently saw a comment by the same admin stating that the edits leading to the block "were [10], [11], and [12], which are also clear ECR violations."

I appeal on this block because I believe these were justified edits because:

  1. This edit: violation WP:ECR. It's clearly an edit request under WP:ECR Section A.1. - pointing out on a blatant violation of WP:NPOV. The article presents Yahya Sinwar as the political head and Mohammed Deif as the military head, but for the opposing side, only Colonels are listed. Senior military officers like Brigadier General Avi Rosenfeld, General Yaron Finkelman, and Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi , all of whom participated, were omitted. I didn’t even include the political head, Benjamin Netanyahu. The admin deleted this edit request and used it, along with two other edits, as grounds for blocking me while violating WP:NPOV and WP:ADMINACCT.
  2. This edit: violation WP:ECR. It's basically similiar to the first edit (request) under WP:ECR Section A.1., just in a reply in the "Talk" section, only this time I've added the political figures "defence minister Yoav Gallant and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu", in contrast with the political Hamas head Yahya Sinwar. However, I acknowledge that maybe these suggestions were not very comprehensive and clear and I'll try to improve my editing.
  3. This edit: violation WP:ECR. I'll explain the background. Beforehand I've left a barnstar on this user as it's allowed, and even encouraged, under WP:BARN: "Remember, any user can give out Barnstars! You do not have to be an administrator!". Then, the same admin deleted my message ("reason: WP:ECR") and included that in a previous block for 1 week. Now, the same admin deleted this message and stating, again, "reason: WP:ECR". I've read ECR rules and there is no statement forbidding users with fewer than 500 edits from leaving messages or barnstars on others’ talk pages.

In conclusion, I strongly believe these 3 edits were justified.

Regardless of this appeal, I want to apologize to ScottishFinnishRadish for my behavior on my own talk page. I should not have acted that way, violating WP:NPA and being unprofessional. My belief that I was wrongly blocked, combined with the admin’s failure to specify my violations, does not excuse my behavior, and for that, I apologize. IdanST (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copying from IdanST's talk by request:
-Reply to xDanielx comment-
"Copied over by request. This was also appealed at AN previously. — xDanielx"
This was not appealed at AN. What I appealed at AN was the 1-week block, which I appealed after it expired, and it had nothing to do with the current 1-month block. IdanST (talk) 4:07 am, Today (UTC−4)Reply
-Reply to CoffeeCrumbs comment-
"There were more violations than listed here and it'd be an enormous stretch even to describe more than maybe one or two of them as having the character of a specific edit request"
I have replied regarding all violations that SFR stated were the cause of the 1-month block.
"Given the appeal at AN a few days ago got no support"
I have not appealed the 1-month block anywhere until now, at AE.
Valereee (talk) 14:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Included in that first edit that I reverted was this, which is a plain ECR violation. As for the initial edit, WP:ER says Any edit request must be accompanied by a detailed and specific description of what changes need to be made. As they were already blocked for ECR violations I would have expected them to familiarize themselves with the expectations of making edit requests. If not followed up by a clear ECR violation I would likely have left the initial edit as a good-faith borderline case. The barnstar is clearly a violation, and leaving the same barnstar for the same editor was part of the reason for the first block. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, I blocked them for a week for ECR violations on October 4th, and then for a month on October 13th for further violations. Both times Doug Weller pulled their TPA for personal attacks. [95] They said during the AN appeal I want to clarify that I appealed the first block. I didn't appeal the second block yet because I am not aware of the alleged violations for which I was banned for one month. I'm not sure if this was an elaborate ruse to get two bites at the apple for appealing, or just unfamiliarity with our processes. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by IdanST

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by xDanielx

Copied over by request. This was also appealed at AN previously. Edit: seems IdanST's intention was to appeal the initial 1-week block at AN, though others understood it as appealing the 1-month block. — xDanielx T/C\R 18:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved editor CoffeeCrumbs

I don't think this is even a close thing. There were more violations than listed here and it'd be an enormous stretch even to describe more than maybe one or two of them as having the character of a specific edit request. I don't see the WP:BARN argument as having any merit either because WP:ECR doesn't claim to be an exhaustive list of the contexts in which a non-ECR editor is not allowed to discuss the topic; the controlling language is all pages and articles related to the topic area, with exceptions being noted, not inclusions. Given the appeal at AN a few days ago got no support and the filer wasn't that far from seeing increased restrictions based on the appeal, I'd recommend the filer retract their appeal while it's still only a month. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 02:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The filer insists the previous AN appeal was of the one week block, but the linked AN appeal is clearly of a one-month block and filed on October 22. The one-week block expired nearly two weeks before the 22nd (the 11th). There appears to be a bit of either lawyering or disorganization; the filer appealed the judgment of the second block and the second block's conclusion but talked about the evidence of the moot first block, but the supporting evidence that led to the second block was presented and evaluated by the commnunity as well. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved editor berchanhimez

The first edit linked to, while not ideal per WP:EDITXY, is pretty clearly an edit request. The inferred request is "remove these people who are not of general rank from the list". To penalize an editor for a mere procedural issue in how they formatted their edit request seems to be heavy handed and non-constructive - as a similar example, would someone be penalized for making a well-thought out, sourced, and non-controversial edit request just because they didn't use the edit request template to make their talk page post? I hope not - so I would support giving this editor the benefit of the doubt on the first edit that they were trying to comply with the restriction and thought that pointing out a discrepancy/inaccuracy counted as an edit request.

Edits 2 and 3 are clearly against the ECR, however. Edit 2 is clear engagement in discussion that did not amount to making an edit request or clarifying a reasonable edit request the person previously made in compliance with ECR (such as adding a source or offering an alternative wording upon request). Edit 3 is not permitted by exceptions in ECR and the appellant seems to be trying to rely on other policies to attempt to justify the barnstar award. The confusion is somewhat understandable, but upon thought such understanding falls apart - in any other situation where there is a conflict between two requirements of equal stature (real life law, for example), people must abide by the stricter applicable requirement.

But it's unimportant to know that. What's important is that they've shown through their edits that they're unable to contribute constructively in this area - both through inability to wait until they're extended-confirmed before contributing, as well as through their incivility, accusations of propaganda, and other edits whether they were edit requests or not. There's a clear solution here - an indefinite topic ban that cannot be appealed until the editor is extended confirmed and such appeal will almost certainly fail unless they edit in other areas of the encyclopedia constructively first. This gives the user a clear cut rule - do not edit related to the Israel-Palestine conflict anywhere on Wikipedia - at all, while also giving them the opportunity to gain experience and show the community that, eventually, (at a minimum) after they're extended confirmed, they may be given a second chance to return to this topic area. I'm unsure if there's precedent for basically "increasing" a sanction at an AE appeal, but if the user is willing to agree to an enforced topic ban and abide by it, I would support removing the block and allowing them a chance to show they will abide by the topic ban rather than forcing them to wait a month (or the time remaining) then begin doing that. I support a topic ban regardless - otherwise the user will likely shoot themselves in the foot trying to edit in the topic area after their block expires. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by IdanST

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • IdanST, I'll agree that the first diff you posted is an edit request. (And it would help prevent confusion in cases like this if you'd format such requests as formal WP:edit requests.) Your second two diffs do not appear to be edit requests. You are literally not allowed yet to discuss this topic anywhere on Wikipedia, including giving out barnstars to other editors for your hard work on Wikipedia and fighting propaganda made by other editors regarding Arab–Israeli conflict. You need to basically ignore all articles in that topic. Since you were posting about the topic at both article talk and user talk, the only real other choice the editors had was to p-block from talk space and user talk space, and a block from talk space necessitates a block from article space, too. So really an full block isn't much more restrictive.
Your statement tells me you do not yet understand what the block was about. If you haven't, please read WP:GAB. You aren't likely to convince people you should be unblocked if you don't understand the reason you were blocked, and from the diffs you provided it seems clear you don't. Valereee (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Noting IdanST has requested via email three days to allow them time to clarify. They've posted a couple of clarifications on their talk, which I will copy over. Valereee (talk) 14:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The way I read the contentious topic appeal procedures Idan could have chosen to appeal to AN or to AE. They choose to appeal to AN and had their appeal rejected days ago. As such I think they don't get to make this appeal again to AE - the consensus at AN matters and stands. They can choose to appeal to ArbCom via WP:ARCA and if Idan agrees, we can carry over the appeal for them there. This is different than someone appealing an indefinite sanction (e.g. topic ban), where there could be multiple appeals to AN or AE and could be switch between the two forums. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, IdanST is saying (in the clarification I just posted; maybe we had an EC) that this is an appeal of a different block than they were appealing at AN. Valereee (talk) 14:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no second block according to the block log. The AN appeal was for a 1 month block by SFR. That block is still in effect and so there can be no other block to appeal but the one which has already been declined by AN. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    RE:SFR's comment about the first vs second block, regardless of what Idan's intent was the bulk of the discussion (such as it was) focused either on Idan's second block or their overall fitness. I find that AN discussion to be a consensus to still be in force, which I should have made clear in the comment above. In fact, I find it as further evidence of the kind of boundary pushing and gaming the system which the contentious topic procedures explicitly prohibit. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would decline this appeal both on the merits and on procedural grounds, per Valereee and Barkeep49, respectively. And I note that if they hope to engage with this topic on Wikipedia, continually re-litigating the same matter does not bode well. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has been open for a week, and there is no appetite for granting this - as such I am closing this appeal as declined. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mhorg

Mhorg is indefinitely topic banned from Eastern Europe, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Mhorg

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Manyareasexpert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Mhorg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Special:PermanentLink/1253900233#Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mhorg, thanks for getting into my edits. The LeMonde issue was discussed and resolved here Talk:Stepan Bandera#Le Monde an unreliable source. You, too, replied in this section, which means you saw the issue was resolved, and it was not that I claimed that LeMonde is unreliable.
Which makes your One of the most recent was when they removed Le Monde with the reason "No reliable source",[46] triggering Ymblanter's response:[47] "next time you call Le Monde an unreliable source I will open a topic ban request" accusation an intentionally false accusation. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive307#Mhorg
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 28 October 2024 returns contested edit
  2. 28 October 2024 again
  3. 4 October 2024 tendentious edit and WEIGHT violation, source has just a passing mention of a subject and the editor puts that into the lead
  4. 10 September 2024 POV pushing, downgrades academic conclusion published in 2022, gives preference to facts from 2014 research, news reports, adds quote meant to mean something
  5. 14 October 2024 returns contested edit with "get consensus first in tp" comment
  6. 2 September 2024 "anti-government" is not in source
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive307#Mhorg First. Mhorg is indefinitely topic banned from Lyudmyla Denisova, very broadly construed. There is a fairly clear consensus that BLP violations took place and there is too much bias for Mhorg to edit this topic in a neutral fashion. This means you need to completely avoid this person and any section of an article that even incidentally mentions her. This also means you may not discuss her, mention her, or refer to her, in any way. Breaching this will likely result in blocks and/or wider topic bans. Second, there will be a formal logged warning for the entire subject area "Eastern Europe". This is a bit against my better judgement, as I think an indef topic ban is the better way to go, but this formal warning should be seen as an absolute last chance. Any violations of policy in this area, no matter how minor, will be justification for any admin to indefinitely topic ban you from the entire area, without requiring a report at WP:AE. I would suggest you self-impose a 1RR restriction and use the talk page more before editing. It is my hope you will get the message and find a way to be less biased in your editing.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Tendentious editing, edit warring. Do we need more diffs?
User talk:Mhorg#October 2024
Special:PermanentLink/1158190670#June 2023
Special:PermanentLink/1158190670#March 2023

In discussion, appeals using their personal opinion Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#c-Mhorg-20240923111300-Genabab-20240919094400 , uses a strawman and makes assumption about opponents behaviors Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#c-Mhorg-20241028083600-Manyareasexpert-20241028071000 . Ignores previous arguments and demands an approach contrary to WP:CONS Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#c-Mhorg-20241028123700-Manyareasexpert-20241028104100 .


Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Special:PermanentLink/1253900233#Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion


Discussion concerning Mhorg

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Mhorg

1&2 are are my attempt to recover content from other users, as the user wanted to remove any source stating that the Azov had not depoliticised. Here[96] they removed the statement of Efraim Zuroff (in april 2022) with the motivation: "Academic researchers argue that the regiment has changed since its integration into the National Guard, tempering far-right elements and distancing from the movement". Consider that there is a large section on Azov Brigade[97] itself where this debate is described, which is still open. The user decided, despite all sources to the contrary, that the debate is over.

3 is the statement of Merezhko, deputy for the Servant of the People and Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. Accusations made by members of the government against the Ukrainian extreme right. I think it is important enough to be mentioned in "Far-right politics in Ukraine".

4 The user first in June 2024 reversed the meaning of the stable article "Commemoration of Stepan Bandera" by inserting his text in the first line of the lede.[98] I added, months later,[99] some context: chronologically the condemnation of the Ukrainian Jewish groups against the rehabilitation of OUN and UPA and the scandal of Bandera's words quoted by the Ukrainian parliament (a scandal in Israel[100] and a diplomatic confrontation with the Polish leadership[101]). Both reported by Haaretz.

6, Bumaga is a well-known[102] Russian anti-government journal.

The user has already had several problems with other users and also administrators. One of the most recent was when they removed Le Monde with the reason "No reliable source",[103] triggering Ymblanter's response:[104] "next time you call Le Monde an unreliable source I will open a topic ban request". The user opens a discussion where they justifies themselves.[105] Ymblanter rightly replies that they should have put that justification as edit summary and that "no reliable sources" was not acceptable, confirming the issue. Now the user is saying that I am falsely accusing them.

Since a Topic Ban is being considered in the field that most interests me and where I have spent almost 10 years here, may I ask that my case not be assessed by just two administrators and that there be a broader discussion?

Statement by TylerBurden

I don't think there is a more clear example of a WP:TENDENTIOUS editor in this topic area than Mhorg, unfortunately despite numerous warnings and even official administrator action, parroting Russian propaganda and talking points is the most important thing to this editor, and they are more than willing to break policy to do so, mostly by misrepresenting sources and edit warring. This has been going on for years, so at this point an eastern Europe topic ban is the only sensible solution to prevent them from further damaging the project. --TylerBurden (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Mhorg

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • Based on the finality of the previous warning, I'm thinking an eastern Europe topic ban is necessary here. There is a whole lot of subpar editing, NPOV issues, tucking things into the lead for prominence, misrepresenting sources, and some edit warring. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see a lot of sub-par editing by several users in the history of these pages, but I agree with SFR that given the previous warning, an EE-wide TBAN is the next step here. I'm most bothered by the insertions of obviously tangential content into the lead, and the edit-warring. Some of the other material comes closer to being a genuine content dispute, but the aggressiveness on display isn't appropriate. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll be closing this with an eastern Europe topic ban soon if there are no objections from administrators. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy

Rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that the Arbitraiton Comittee is better able to determine what, if anything, the problems are and any appropriate sanction. Will be referring it to them at WP:ARCA (Further discussion can be found here). Barkeep49 (talk) 19:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nableezy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Andrevan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:PIA4

I'm asking for civility. An RFC remaining at the status quo is not gaming the system. That is standard procedure. Accusing me of tendentious and disruptive editing is not appropriate. I am simply making normal edits and am not alone. It's an open dispute and I followed the advice of SFR in opening an RFC. That Snowstormfigorion happened to revert beforehand is not gaming the system, it's a classic "wrong version," and wiki veterans should know better. I don't see that I should simply put up with being accused falsely and aspersions cast in bad faith. See the discussion at the 1948 war talk page. See the history of the 1948 war article. The material was removed by several editors and restored by several editors. There's currently no consensus on what to do. It was suggested by SFR that I start an RFC which I did so. Nableezy accuses me of tendentious editing, gaming the system, and disruptive editing. I left a message on his talk page and on SFR's talk page and he did not clarify or modify his aspersions. Andre🚐 21:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to Nableezy below, no. Starting a new RFC on a different article, as SFR suggested and confirmed [106], is not improper. WP:CCC, but in this case it's long-standing content that was in the article for years and the RFC being referred to was on a different article. It is not mentioned at all in the policy or guidelines on disruptive editing or tendentious editing, or gaming at all. I made a total of 12 reverts to that article [edited Andre🚐 22:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)], started an RFC and had discussion. Please explain how any of this is described by any behavioral guideline. It's incivil accusations and doubling down on it. Andre🚐 21:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to Barkeep's message, I agree with the point - a child article could have something DUE that isn't DUE at the parent. I would argue it does in this case. I would also argue that it's not terribly relevant to the civility of accusations of tendentious editing and disruptive editing, though. How could I be guilty of those charges with the record of editing to that article? I restored the material oncetwice separated by 7 days [edited Andre🚐 22:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)], and then I started the RFC at SFR's prompting. Even if Nableezy were right on the merits, which he isn't, an uninvolved admin said I should start the RFC so I did. How can this be gaming the system? Andre🚐 21:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WRT Huldra's message, the 2nd revert by Nableezy was his revert of me removing my post. Since he removed my reply and then I removed my entire post but he reverted that restoring my post. And yes I guess the diffs are slightly out of order but that shouldn't really matter since they are timestamped. That was not intentional, I suppose I can correct the order, shouldn't be too difficult. Andre🚐 22:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huldra, I believe I fixed the diff order. Nableezy, if you agree that starting the RFC wasn't disruptive or tendentious or gaming, then nothing I did was gaming. The standard procedure is that when an RFC runs, you don't edit the part under RFC. Isn't it? Or has that changed? Things change all the time but last I checked, that is officially how things work. Andre🚐 22:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huldra, one of your diffs is not a "new post" but a removal of the post. I did not post after being told repeatedly not to. The only reason why I posted at nableezy's page at all was to seek to resolve the dispute and clarify it before bringing it here. "Kindly take your leave" is not the same as "don't you post any more posts here." It is suggested to attempt to resolve disputes with users before escalating them which I have attempted in good faith to do. Andre🚐 22:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vanamonde, how am I selectively reading SFR's message? If there's no consensus the status quo remains, per NOCON. I do not have more than one revert. I had 1 revert to Nableezy's talk, removing my whole post. I didn't revert to restore. Please look again. Andre🚐 22:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, yes, I had two total reverts to 1948 separated by 7 days [107] [108], that's my mistake. Andre🚐 22:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huldra, I posted one more clarifying question since Nableezy referred to SFR's message and I sought clarification. Nableezy reverted it so I posted it to SFR's talk page. Contrary to your assertion, I did not post again to Nableezy's page. Nableezy did though respond to the thread on SFR's page. That all seems a bit silly. I didn't disrespect Nableezy's subsequent directive to stay off his talk page. And Vandamonde, I didn't selectively interpret SFR's post. SFR said to start an RFC. I said "No" to nableezy's repeated assertion that this was gaming the system. I didn't dispute SFR's statement that there is no consensus. If there's no consensus we retain the status quo for the RFC. I didn't edit war. I made 2 reverts separate by 7 days and I was not alone in doing so. Andre🚐 22:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep, I don't see how I was supposed interpret "kindly take your leave" as "do not post any clarifying further questions" nor was Nableezy's subsequent post to my talk page "necessary" as it came after I removed my post, not added a new post. Andre🚐 22:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep, I interpreted that as Nableezy wasn't interested in apologizing or modifying his accusations, not a blanket talk page ban. I don't see that I should interpret that so strictly as you seem to. It became clearer afterwards, but I wasn't intentionally flouting that. It seemed more sensible to continue the conversation with the followup question to SFR in-context. After it was made clear by Nableezy reverting that I did not post to his talk page again. My next post was to remove the whole thread. Andre🚐 22:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Further regarding the issue of edit warring, it's clear that a number of editors tried to remove the material and a number of editors restored it. But I'm here about Nableezy's claims of tendentious, disruptive, and gaming. I didn't engage in those. I restored the content twice over the course of 7 days. Then I started the RFC at prompting from SFR. I did not engage in any disruptive behaviors. If some editors try to remove material and other editors are restoring material, are you trying to say that the correct action is to simply let the editors removing it leave it out? That's not how things have ever been done here that I know of. If an RFC is merited as an uninvolved admin suggested, and if the article scopes are different as an uninvolved admin suggested, then the RFC would have the status quo during the duration. That's always been the case in my experience. I'm rather disappointed that this is now about whether I violated nableezy's talk page or whether I edit warred. Even if you believe my 2 reverts are edit warring, pblock me from that page then. But how about Nableezy's sanctionable incivility? Andre🚐 22:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ManyAreasExpert, thanks, but, I think there is a policy somewhere that permits such talkpagebans, although judging from Nableezy's last message and the one from BilledMammal (thanks, also) this should no longer be an issue. Also, the topic ban is from 9 months ago so it is expired. Andre🚐 23:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The policy @ManyAreasExpert, I found it, it's WP:USERTALKSTOP. Andre🚐 00:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @ManyAreasExpert, I suppose that may be the case then that Nableezy violated their topicban in March of this year, though I'm not sure if there is some kind of statute of limitations on litigating old stuff here, and but I see no problem with someone looking into that. However, I wouldn't be surprised if that would be considered too old or a case of laches in common Wikipedia precedent, since all of Wikipedia's remedies are at least in theory based on preventing possible harm and not punishing technical violations (which, should also apply to the question of any edit war, since it hasn't been one since the RFC has been opened, as is customary). Andre🚐 00:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll add two more things. One, about edit warring. I do not think my bias for WP:PRESERVE is tendentious, or my 2 reverts defending the status quo slow-mo edit warring. When editors remove something without a valid rationale, it's not a violation to restore content that's been there since 2020 especially if more than one person is doing it, and when an uninvolved admin has agreed there is no consensus and a RFC is needed. Under Wikipedia norms, consensus, and PAG, that content is status quo, always has been unless someone can explain how that doesn't apply. It doesn't become a violation because I restored it twice. If it is considered edit warring though simply because I did so twice and not once, it's not necessarily tendentious, gaming, or disruptive. Those have policy definitions that aren't met by the simple act of restoring content which, if it's edit warring to restore it, it was editors edit warring to remove the content. It's a content dispute and there's nothing to show or say that my particular participation was disruptive or tendentious. And the second thing about the talk page guidelines. I was not hounding or harassing nableezy. I believe it is encouraged to try to defuse disputes. The alternative was simply to allow the incivility to stand. I don't see how that is justifiable. If nableezy had a problem with my behavior, the proper forum and venue is this one. Instead, nableezy persisted in making unfounded and incivil accusations. That remain unsubstantiated. I therefore really had no other choice, except dropping it, than pursuing it on nableezy's talk page. WP:SOMTP was the response. That itself may be problematic. Even if you agree that my 2 reverts were edit warring, I don't see how that changes the issue here. Aspersions require detailed diffs and evidence. Once SFR had confirmed there was no consensus and we needed an RFC, at that time nableezy should have agreed I was not being tendentious or disruptive. Andre🚐 00:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Responding again to Barkeep, as I said, I thought that since Nableezy referred to the statement by SFR I would ask SFR to clarify. That seemed simple enough and didn't seem like it would offend since Nableezy was the one who pinged SFR on the article talk to begin with. At any rate, if the subsequent message after the "kindly take leave" was unwelcomed, I apologize for that. Andre🚐 01:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Once again Nableezy invokes "the wrong version." But I didn't revert it back to that immediately before the RFC. Another user did that. I started the RFC. But either way, once SFR confirmed that an RFC was proper, the argument fell apart, yet you still fail to acknowledge or admit that. I was simply following the advice of SFR and not at all gaming anything. However, even if it hadn't been reverted by Snowstorm, it is the case that for 30 days (or however long the RFC runs) it is normal for the status quo to remain, even when it has no consensus, that's completely normal wiki procedure and not disruptive, tendentious, or gaming. Andre🚐 01:14, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TarnishedPath, I wasn't sure about that so asked about it on Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#ONUS_a_blank_check? and there was no consensus there, nor has there ever been in the past, that in general ONUS supercedes WP:PRESERVE, WP:NOCON, and WP:RFC. The standard has always been during RFCs not to edit the page. Andre🚐 01:30, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the others aren't edit warring and I am because I had 2 reverts, I think a 1RR-7day restriction or a 1RR-14day restriction would be easier to comply with than a 0RR. I also don't think a 0RR is a fair sanction. Andre🚐 18:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The important diffs
  1. accusation
  2. accusation of tendentious and wikilawyering
  3. ping to SFR
  4. accusation of tendentious disruptive editing
  5. gaming
  6. defense of aspersions
  7. accusation of distortion
  8. revert my message
  9. revert
  10. request not to edit his talk page
  11. Repeated aspersion of tendentious editing
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. [109]
  2. others in AE archives
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Nableezy is aware of CTOPs restrictions having been previously sanctioned.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[110]

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nableezy

It *is* tendentious to make editors go through the same argument over and over again. We had a recent RFC on the exact same topic on the parent article. Anybody is justified in discussing and attempting to find a new consensus, but when we have already had that argument and there was a consensus established at the parent article demanding that the material be retained for 30 days because an RFC was opened *is* tendentious and it *is* gaming. That isnt an aspersion. If there is something about my reverting Andre on my own talk page or responding to his admin-shopped complaint at another talk page I need to respond to here lmk. But citing evidence for an accusation is the opposite of "casting aspersions". nableezy - 21:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49, yes, something can be relevant in a child article where it is less important in the parent article, but that isnt the issue here. The issue is whether or not the topics are even related, with the established consensus being that the wars of 1947-1948 not being related to the mass emigration of Jews to Israel over the next decade. If it is not related to the wider war, it is likewise not related to something with an even smaller scope. The discussion at the parent article found a consensus that this was at most an indirect result of the entire conflict, it makes no sense that it would then be a direct, and major, consequence of the smaller scoped article. Ill also point to this comment by another editor saying the same thing. nableezy - 21:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Andre, starting the RFC is not the issue. Starting it and demanding the material that does not have consensus for inclusion and that past RFC consensus against the very same arguments being offered for inclusion here *is* what I am saying is tendentious and gaming. nableezy - 21:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BilledMammal it means that discussion has concluded and Id like the person to no longer continue it. When Andre ignored that I then asked that he no longer edit my talk page at all. I dont think his final two edits to my talk page are really an issue worth discussing. At this point though, yes I have asked him to no longer edit my talk page except when required. nableezy - 23:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Manyareasexpert I decline to engage with anything else you’ve written as I see literally no point, but please read through the end of the section of the link to my talk page that you posted to see that ban was reduced on appeal to 30 days. nableezy - 00:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Andre, stay off my talk page was not the response, that came after you went from discussing with me to badgering me. Pinging an admin to my talk page after me asking you to end the discussion, removing the entire discussion on my talk page without my permission, that was what led me to ask you to stay off my talk page. Not your initial message, or your next message for that matter. You can say my comments were unsubstantiated, but I did substantiate them, I provided the reasons why I say those actions were gaming and disruptive. Aspersions are unsupported claims, not claims you disagree with. I do think you both edit warred and transparently attempted to game inclusion of what does not have consensus for inclusion and in a very closely related discussion has consensus against. I’ve given the reasons why I say that. Why didn’t I come to AE? Because every time I try to deal with any behavioral thing at AE it becomes an ungodly clusterfuck and I just don’t have that energy to give right now. But yes I think you are gaming and yes I think that is sanctionable. If the admins have any questions for me I’m happy to answer them but other than that idk what else there is for me to say here. nableezy - 00:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BilledMammal, that is neither true nor related. Both the status quo and the consensus of that discussion was to include in the lead. You yourself removed it from the lead and then attempted to claim that to be the status quo. I’m pretty tired of this throw whatever you can against the wall to see what sticks method of seeking sanctions, so unless an admin tells me I need to respond to something else here I am going to ignore it as noise. nableezy - 02:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no. You removed it on August 19, when it had been in the lead unchallenged since April. nableezy - 03:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SFR, there is zero cause for any interaction ban at all. Disagreeing with somebody doesn’t make it so there is no constructive communication. The idea that if people consistently disagree with each other the correct course of action is to limit any discussion between them is, to be blunt, childish. We are not children to be put in time out. We don’t have to agree, but others may find our points persuasive and from that a wider consensus may develop. How many people cited either of our views at the RFC on Hamas-run as a qualifier for the health ministry? Consensus development is not about the two of us agreeing or persuading one another, it is about us persuading other users, and by limiting any interaction you stifle that. nableezy - 12:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And as far as who cares, due to another users repeated reverts, the articles lead now includes an outright false statement, not just an irrelevant one. You may not care about that, but I do. nableezy - 12:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as 0RR, I have made a grand total of one revert, and I did so on the basis of a highly related RFC consensus. If you are defining participant in an edit war as anybody who made a single revert and justified it then I think you and I are operating with different dictionaries. nableezy - 13:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You may not care about that, but I do is now being offered as harsh language by me lol? You literally said But, really, who cares if that sentence is there or not for the duration of the RFC. That is just ridiculous. I answered who cares about including factually incorrect, and there is no dispute on that part, material in the lead of an encyclopedia article. I do. nableezy - 15:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dont believe I participated in a multi-party edit war, I made the edit I made, and explained it, without even looking at the history of the article. I saw the discussion, and recalled the prior RFC, and saw people making the same exact argument that was rejected by consensus in that RFC. So I made a single revert. When it was restored I complained about a factual inaccuracy. Somebody else modified that, that was reverted to restore the inaccuracy, and Zero removed that because with the inaccuracy it was even less related to the topic. I do not think either of us "participated in a multi-party edit war", and I think if you are going to define edit-warring to include a single revert made with a justification on a talk page that needs to be made considerably more explicit. My past sanctions, a decade ago, were because I did indeed edit war. It is something I have not done for over a decade intentionally. Ive given others the same advice, eg here, where I advised a user if you make it a rule to instead of reverting an edit of yours that was reverted to go to the talk page and essentially convince others to revert it by consensus you will save yourself most of the administrative headaches in this area. I had no intention to edit-war, and would not have made any additional reverts. And as such I do not think it reasonable to portray my actions at that page as edit-warring. nableezy - 16:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49 I think it certainly turned into that, but I don't really think it was when I removed the sentence. But also, I think the RFC from the prior article clearly applies to this same issue. It is the same issue with the same sources, mostly offered by the same users. To me this was a simple issue of math. If the set of consequences of A is the sum of the set of consequences of B and of C, than if something is not in set A it is in neither sets B or C. I think it is plainly obvious, if you review both discussions, that we already have a consensus on this topic. And so I removed a sentence once. When it became a prolonged back and forth yes it was a multi-party edit war, but I don't think it was when I reverted. nableezy - 22:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@the admins, if you're going to be looking at the entire history, Snowstormfigorion is even reverting tags about a false statement in the article. That is their now third revert, two of them inserting false statements that fail verification. nableezy - 15:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ManyAreasExpert

Special:GoToComment/c-Nableezy-20240311163900-Coretheapple-20240311163900 Thanks for demonstrating your inability to respond to math.

Edit: Special:PermanentLink/1204764975#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction so the editor was still under the topicban at that time? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually surprised this uncivility (and topicban violation, if I'm correct) complaint is down to how to interpret some requests to not to edit a user talkpage. A talkpage is a legitimate method to communicate between the editors. Including posting warnings if one assumes some Wikipedia rules are broken. Actually, one is encouraged to post legitimate warnings to user talkpage by the rules. This is how editors encourage others to adhere to the rules, and this is how we maintain the health of the community.
And nowhere in the rules I saw an option to "ban" somebody when I don't like their warnings. Actually, I would expect administrators to be wary about the repeated behavior of "banning" those giving warnings, as the editor did also for me User talk:Manyareasexpert#my talk page . If I understand the rules correctly, one simply cannot "ban" you from a talk page, it's contrary to the rules!
I would also expect administrators to be wary of the (repeated?) behavior of undoing the warnings without archiving them [111] with "lol".
Behaviors like these go against the collaborative spirit editors are supposed to work within the community. Somebody may even consider them offending. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 23:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Andrevan, I'm not aware of the policy to restrict others from my talkpage, if there is such, please disregard the message above (and enlighten me with the policy, thanks). ManyAreasExpert (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, given the editor has "banned" at least 2 other editors, and me, an uninvolved editor, who was not a target of their personal attack, we may have a WP:SOMTP case here: Except in specific and clear cases of WP:WIKIHOUNDING, such "banning" is highly problematic and an indication that the banning editor is having serious problems cooperating with others. How many other editors were "banned"?
The topicban was ending at the end of March 2024 and the editor participated in discussion on March 11.
Correction: as pointed out, the TB was appealed and shortened to the end of Jan 2024. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 00:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huldra

A' list for diffs are not chronological:

  • 8) is 19:59, 28 October 2024 to N's talk page where N tells A. to "Kindly take your leave from this page. Thank you."
  • 6) is 20:17, 28 October 2024 to N's talk page where N revert a new post by A
  • 7) is 20:27, 28 October 2024 to N's talk page where N revert yet another post by A
Possible boomerang for keep posting on a user-page after you have been told not to? Huldra (talk) 21:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User:Andrevan yes, please get the diffs in a correct order, thank you, Huldra (talk) 22:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All the following diffs are to N's talk-page:

Is it ok to post on a talk-page after been repeatedly asked not to? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Andrevan wrote: "Kindly take your leave" is not the same as "don't you post any more posts here." Actually, that is how I would have interpreted it. At least, you shouldn't be surprised about curt language if you insists on posting again, Huldra (talk) 22:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BilledMammal

Just noting that Nableezy doesn't interpret "So kindly take your leave from this page" as a ban from the talk page; instead, they appear to interpret it merely a request. See this clarification that they made when they used the phrase previously.

As note on the dispute itself, this discussion appears to contain a related issue.
Nableezy and a couple of other editors wish to include "In its investigation on 20 October 2023, Forensic Architecture concluded the blast was the result of a munition fired from Israel". The status quo is to not include, but based on their WP:INVOLVED reading of that informal discussion, they argue that there is a consensus to include it, and have repeatedly done so.
Nableezy, it was WP:BOLDLY added on September 11 and disputed immediately, and has continued to be contentious. It isn't the status quo.
That isn't the content currently being disputed, or the content I am saying is not the status quo. That content is the sentence "In its investigation on 20 October 2023, Forensic Architecture concluded the blast was the result of a munition fired from Israel", which is not in the diff you provided, and was added on September 11.
Perhaps this is a misunderstanding; now that this has been clarified, do you withdraw your objection that the inclusion of this content is the status quo? 03:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
@Valereee: Unfortunately, your proposed method of restoring the status quo while an RFC is proceeding does not appear workable; see this test of it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee: I'll add that I previously tried something similar with WP:RMTR; an editor was repeatedly making bold moves, and rather than get into a move war I would go to RMTR to request that an uninvolved editor restore the status quo title. It almost never happened, with the uninvolved editor instead converting the technical request into a requested move proposing moving the article back to the status quo title.
Given the issues we've seen with the experiment here, as well as the issues I've seen with previous similar requests, I don't think this is a workable solution. BilledMammal (talk) 02:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
0RR probably isn't the best solution to this common problem. A better solution is to treat reverts away from the status quo as different from reverts back to the status quo - treat the former as more disruptive than the latter, because they are more disruptive.
This would function as "consensus required", requiring editors to get consensus if their disputed bold edit is reverted, as well as providing a clear path to get the content back to the status quo. BilledMammal (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Zero, if there is consensus then that is the new status quo, and reverting away from that will be the disruptive behaviour. BilledMammal (talk) 15:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TarnishedPath

WP:ONUS would suggest that once material is removed from an article and while discussion is occurring on the article's talk page that the content stay removed until such time as there is consensus unless there is some other policy reason for the material to be re-inserted. Per the policy, "[t]he responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". TarnishedPathtalk 01:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by arkon

Clearly the important thing here is a nebulous personal talk page ban that was or wasn't. Should have already been a case via ARCA, but I'm apparently in the minority. Arkon (talk) 01:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

The disputed sentence covers two separate issues 1) The total number of Jews that immigrated to Israel in the three years following the war and 2) Included within that, those Jews immigrating from the Arab world. The currently running RFC addresses only the second issue so the QUO argument should only be about that part, nevertheless, despite it being made absolutely clear on the article talk page that the material covered in 1) fails verification, Snowstormfigorion has again made another revert restoring this material claiming that it is subject of the RFC, which it isn't. Selfstudier (talk) 13:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase du jour is "multi-editor edit war" (by experienced editors), I suppose that might be an "improvement" over "tag-team edit warring" (by regulars) per the potential ARCA. I deliberately decided not to revert the changes being made, although I thought that they should be reverted, for fear of this dismal accusation being made once again and there it is. If we want this "behavior" (which I regard as being arguments over content) to stop, then the need is to define this "offence" clearly so that it is simply not an option anymore. How does it come about? There is a removal (usually, it could be an addition)), then it is reverted and off we go with the supposed regulars, typically supplemented by some irregulars, back and forth. OK, the first removal must not give simply ONUS as reason, there must be some substantive real reason for removal. If there is, then any revert requires an equally substantive, real reason. If that's so, then the only recourse is discussion starting on the talk page. That's a particular case of WP:BRD turned into a rule instead of an optional thing (not saying this "rule" doesn't need workshopping and tidying up). Selfstudier (talk) 13:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alaexis

Considering that we've learned recently about what appears to be a large-scale and well-organised effort to influence the Wikipedia coverage of the conflict (link, please see the part about the Discord channel used to coordinate Wikipedia editing), I think that it might be worthwhile to review the decisions taken recently in this topic area, including the closures of RfCs like this one. Alaexis¿question? 22:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish, for sure, my point was that opening an RfC in this situation wasn't disruptive. Alaexis¿question? 23:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

I have edited that article only twice in more than two years. Any suggestion that I edit-war there is false. Moreover, I'm happy to justify either of those edits.

Only a fraction of reverts are to-and-fro between regular editors. A large number are reverts of new or fly-by-night editors who don't know the subject and come along to insert bad text in violation of NPOV or RS or the facts. This type of revert is a good edit and without it keeping the article in an acceptable state would be impossible. An inevitable result of hitting the most experienced editors with 0RR would be deterioration of article quality. Zerotalk 00:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Valereee: You ask a fair question, and if you study my record you'll see that I do that sort of thing hardly ever. If I'd thought for more than a few seconds, I would have decided against it. As far as I remember, my motive at that moment was that there was a recent RfC about exactly the same question and there was no talk page consensus to overturn it. So I felt there was already a consensus until someone established a different consensus, which is what I wrote in my edit summary. I also knew that the sentence I removed is factually incorrect, as Nableezy had pointed out on the talk page and I had checked. Zerotalk 14:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a consensus to change the status quo, and especially if there is an RfC to change the status quo, then reverting back to the status quo is obviously more disruptive than implementing the consensus. It negates the very purpose of consensus. So BilledMammal's latest idea doesn't pass scrutiny. Zerotalk 14:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ABHammad

I'd like to point out that the editors mentioned in this complaint each have their own record, which could suggest the need for tailored sanctions. For instance, only three months ago, User:Makeandtoss, who took part in this edit war, was given their 'final warning' "for behavior that falls below the required level required when editing in contentious topics", with Seraphimblade writing that it should be given "with very clear understanding that any more problems will almost certainly lead to a topic ban". To me, it's obvious now that just giving more warnings won't make a difference. ABHammad (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Makeandtoss

@Valereee: Thank you for the ping, I had been seriously ill. As well-articulated by @Vanamonde93:, there are different aspects to this dispute. Removing material that had no consensus for its inclusion or keeping conforms with WP:ONUS, while constantly re-adding that contested material is in direct violation of it. WP:DON'T PRESERVE is actually the relevant guideline, rather than WP:PRESERVE, since the former's scope includes contentious material such as this one. WP:STATUSQUO is an essay. RFCs are a way of reaching broader consensus so they cannot be considered to have a freeze effect on contentious material that has no consensus, and this RFC was anyway belatedly opened at the end after the removals. Having avoided making further reverts myself and engaged extensively in the talk page and encouraged those re-adding the contentious material to seek proper dispute resolution, conformity with all the relevant guidelines and policies was maintained. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also regarding the IBANs for the other editors I think it might not be helpful, since, during disputes, we need more communication, not less of it; disputes are often the result of a lack of communication. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • @Nableezy: - I have little patience for people who don't respect RfC consensuses. And I could understand the idea of saying "This was rejected as UNDUE at the child article, so it definitely wouldn't be appropriate at the parent article." But I would expect things to be appropriate to include at a child article, with a smaller focus, that would be wrong to include at a parent article with a larger focus. So, for instance, when I split YouTube and privacy from YouTube I covered stuff in the LEAD that I wouldn't think appropriate for the lead at YouTube. Can you explain what that wouldn't be true in this circumstance? Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I find Nableezy's explanation reasonable for why the situation here is different than what I suggested above. I am also not impressed with Andrevan continuing to post on Nableezy's talkpage (other than required notifications) after being asked not to - Nableezy shouldn't have had to go to Andrevan's user talk to make that request, requesting it on Nableezy's user talk should have been more than sufficient. I hope to be able to look into the edit-warring piece soon. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Andrevan how did you interpret Kindly take your leave from this page. Thank you. then? Barkeep49 (talk) 22:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Andrevan: The context BM provided matters in that it clearly has some wiggle room but I think the idea that Kindly take your leave from this page. Thank you. meant something for Nableezy and not you is just a really poor reading of things. Taking it as a cue to continue the discussion only seems likely to inflame tensions - as it did here with a more formal and complete request for you to absent yourself from his user talk. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • When a given piece of content is in dispute, the appropriate thing to do is to discuss it substantively. Edit-warring over what version of the content remains in place while said discussion occurs is battleground conduct - why did there need to be seven reverts after this initial removal? And while Nableezy's language on the talk page is harsh, I will note that Andrevan is the only one to have made more than one revert in that sequence. Andre is also selectively reading SFR's message in this post, and Nableezy's response is understandable at the very least. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For ease of others the chronology is:
    Barkeep49 (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • So here we have yet another situation where there is no firm consensus on content which led to an edit war among multiple parties and the commensurate escalation of hostility. The RFC against inclusion is for a related article, but not the same article and arguments about DUE aren't addressed by an RFC on another article with a different scope. In descending order, the biggest issues I see in this situation is the edit warring, the user talk page behavior exhibited by Andrevan, and the lack of using established dispute resolution to just open an RFC and wait a month. If we're looking for the status quo while the RFC runs then it would include the sentence about Jewish migration, as that was the long term status quo. That is wasn't in the article around the time the RFC was opened is a function of a multi-party edit war. But, really, who cares if that sentence is there or not for the duration of the RFC? Was it really worth edit warring over for either side? Nableezy, as they often do, used needlessly aggressive language, but that's pretty common for the topic.
    Now, on to things we can do.
    • 0RR for anyone involved in this edit war that was also involved in another edit war discussed at AE in the past year. These multi-party edit wars instead of just following DR are far too common in the topic area and make an appearance at most AE reports
    • Iban Andrevan and Nableezy, which I should have done when I sanctioned them both a year ago
    • Iban BilledMammal and Nableezy, because as we can see in this report, they're not capable of constructive communication or collaboration (this isn't really related to the situation being reported, but it is evident from their behavior in this report)
    • Restore the article to the pre-edit war status quo ante and apply consensus required and everyone just waits out the RFC, which is what should have happened six reverts ago
    • Sternly wag our finger at Andrevan for their shenanigans on Nableezy's talk page
    • Yet again wag our finger at Nableezy's use of harsh language
  • The Ibans should have a blanket exclusion for anything directly before Arbcom, e.g. a case request, a clarification/amendment request, or a case itself, and should also have a carve out to allow them to respond to an RFC created by the other editor, though only addressing the RFC question. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd hate to see either of these ibans; all three editors would have a very difficult time trying to avoid one another. I almost feel like it's asking them to game the system. I'd support 0RR for the edit war participants. These round-robin wars by experienced editors who appear to be gaming the system are disruptive, and I think we should actively discourage it. Support restoring pre-edit war version until RfC is completed. Fine with stern finger-wagging. Valereee (talk) 13:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It obviously is fair for administrators to question the utility of warnings, but I think continuing to refer to formal warnings as "finger wagging" serves to undermine any utility they have. SFR, what you derisively call finger wagging just caused me to escalate something from a warning into a sanction in this topic area - to no small amount of pushback. I find what Andrevan did on Nableezy's usertalk wrong, lacking in collegiality, and failing to follow editorial and behavioural best practice. I would hope you do as well and would wish it to stop and if this is so, I would hope we could all act accordingly in the message we send to people about it. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You're right, I should treat the warnings with a bit more respect, despite my feelings about their overall utility. In this situation, Andrevan has been sanctioned in the topic area, and in my view that is a level above a final warning. I would support a formal warning, stern even, for Andrevan. I would support further sanctions, as well, up to an indefinite topic ban since I believe that misbehavior after a sanction demonstrates that the sanction wasn't effective. As for Nableezy, we're yet again at AE for what Vanamonde called harsh language, which they have been consistently warned about and they're yet again dropping You may not care about that, but I do. at AE which they were warned about, so I would also support a formal warning or further sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As the person being linked to there for a warning there I see a large difference in the decorum Nableezy showed there (and in fairness to them struck when asked, which is in-line with the revert when asked ethos you've promoted in this topic area) and what they did here. I see them explaining their actions to an uninvolved administrator. The explanation may be insufficient for participating in a multiparty edit war, but I don't find anything about the explanation itself to have crossed lines. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm willing to accept that my reading of that may have been more harsh than was intended. Nableezy, my apologies. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nableezy so if we're not calling this a multiparty edit war, what should we call it? I called it that because it was the first phrase that came to mind but am very open to describing the sequence in a different way - it was definitely not the focus of my message. And from your perspective is there any issue with the history I captured above? From my perspective it is a problem. I'm wondering if you agree and if not why (so perhaps I can reconsider). Barkeep49 (talk) 17:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, you're right, we shouldn't be flip. Valereee (talk) 16:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Zero0000, you say you didn't edit war and you're happy to justify your edits. This is the edit I'm concerned about: you were part of a multi-editor edit war by experienced editors who know how to avoid individual sanctions. Why did you participate in an ongoing edit war? Valereee (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I personally find Andrevan's actions here - as the only person to appear twice on the timeline for removal/restoration - and for the actions on Nableezy's talk to be qualitatively different than anyone else we're talking about. It also seems to me that 0RR here would have resulted in an outcome that enshrines the "wrong version" (the analysis of which I agree with SFR) for the duration of any discussion and RFC and as such I'm not sure is the right response to what happened on that page. And if we're seriously discussing sanctions on anyone other than Andrevan and Nableezy, I think we need to formally notify them. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The difference in outcome with 0RR in place is there wouldn't have been seven reverts, and hopefully the issue would have followed dispute resolution earlier and with less acrimony. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For me the 0RR is to discourage this kind of ECR round-robin edit war where everyone takes a turn so nobody gets sanctioned. And I don't see it as necessarily enshrining a wrong version. Open an RfC and at the same time make an edit request asking for the edit to be reverted by an uninvolved editor while the RfC is running. That would turn it into IO removes, A opens an RfC and an edit request asking for an uninvolved reversion. Valereee (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sold on this being the right response yet, but want to think more about it since I hear what you two are saying. Since it's being seriously discussed I have notified the other 5 people about this thread and possible sanction. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Alaexis that's so far into Arbcom territory it's reviewing checkuser applications. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • When examining this sort of slow edit-warring, a key question for me is whether editors are engaging substantively with the content, or making reflexive reverts. Having made reverts, Nableezy, Alaexis, Makeandtoss, and Zero have all participated substantively, and avoided making further reverts. Andrevan also participated substantially, but made two reverts, and there was the user talk fracas. Snowstormfigorion has edited the talk page, but their participation there leaves something to be desired - they clearly had not read the discussion before making a revert, and have not engaged since. As such the conduct of Andre and Snowstormfigorion is qualitately different from the others for me; I would not support 0RR on anyone else based on this evidence, though I'm willing to consider who else may have a history of edit-warring per SFR above. I would support a warning, but no more, for Nableezy for combative language. I don't believe successive warnings make them pointless. There is a spectrum of bad behavior, and the response needs to be proportionate - the examples discussed here merit warning, and I don't think a history of warnings changes that for me. I also don't think IBANs are a good idea. On the merits, I don't think the problem is that these editors bring out the worst in each other, it's the topic that does. On the practicality, for editors whose primary focus is PIA articles, with a contribution history as long as Andre, Nableezy, and BM have, an IBAN would lead to considerably more drama than it would avoid. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Makeandtoss, you haven't made a statement. You've been mentioned in Nableezy's statement, ABHammad's statement, and Vanamonde's comment. Would you like to make a statement?
Snowstormfigorion, ditto. Valereee (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noting that I have TBANned Snowstormfigorion for six months, given that they continued to revert - including reverting in content with verification concerns that had been acknowledged by others, and then reverting the addition a tag on the same, without any talk page participation. This does not change my assessment of the rest of the dispute. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Archives908

Archives908 is warned that further edit-warring in this topic may be grounds for stringent sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Archives908

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Parishan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Archives908 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[112] [113] [114] [115] [116] [117] [118] [119]

Archives908 has engaged in slow edit warring against multiple editors in National Assembly (Artsakh), resorting to POV-pushing (repeatedly adding controversial information about a dissolved entity still existing using questionable sources) before consensus is reached. They were warned that this behaviour was unconstructive and were asked to revert their edits while the discussion is ongoing [120] but disregarded the warning.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • [121] Archives908 is aware of AA2-related articles constituting contentious topics.
  • [122] Archives908 was previously reported for mass-reverting edits in AA2 articles without regard for content (the report had to do with undoing the edits of a topic-banned user in violation of WP:GRAVEDANCE) and appeared to offer a sincere apology for doing so: [123], leading to the case being closed without sanctions.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[124]

Discussion concerning Archives908

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Archives908

User Parishan made one edit, which was reverted one time by myself on National Assembly (Artsakh). We have since been civilly discussing the edit on the talk page according to WP:BRD guidelines in an attempt to reach WP:CON. Neither of us have engaged in an WP:EW or violated either WP:3RR or even WP:2RR. I am utterly confused by this report. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 13:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, in 2021, I was a relatively unexperienced editor and was unaware about the policies regarding reverting edits made by confirmed sockpuppets. I apologized, educated myself of those policies, and never violated those rules since. This old report, from almost half a decade ago, is in my opinion irrelevant to this topic as I have never "mass reverted edits" made by a sockpuppet ever since. Archives908 (talk) 13:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to provide additional clarification. Parishan made this edit on October 28. I restored the last stable version (only once) because Parishan's edit was factually incorrect. In Parishan's WP:ES, they used the word unlikely, implying uncertainty in their own edit. After the revert, we proceeded to have a very civil discussion regarding the status of the National Assembly of Artsakh. Parishan, at first, asserted that the body is defunct. Then on October 29, Parishan stated that the body does engage in "local media outreach". Yet, sources I found showed that the National Assembly has been actively operating in Armenia. From releasing official documents, organizing rallies, press briefings and protests, and meeting with leaders of the 2024 Armenian protests. It's significantly more then just "local media outreach". In any case, we were trying to reach a WP:CON. There was no WP:EW. As you see here ([125]) I even recommended a fair alternative by suggesting we create a new article which would be centered around the government-in-exile in Yerevan, while the current article could be focused on the former legislative body in Stepanakert. This would have been an ideal solution for both of our concerns, but my proposal was ignored. I abided by WP:BRD ethos. Parishan's "B"old edit was "R"everted, and then we both "D"iscussed. Parishan did ask me to revert my edit, but in all honesty, I skimmed the users message very fast that day and totally read over their request (by mistake). I should have taken time to read their response more carefully, and for that I do apologize. However, I acted fully in accordance with WP:BRD ethos and did not violate WP:2RR. I ask the Admins for leniency. I will certainly work on reading responses more diligently in the future. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 21:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Archives908

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I'm definitely not happy to see a long term WP:1AM edit war in a contentious topic. The number of reverts is over the top, so an only warning for edit warring is about the lightest touch I think we should use here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd support an only warning. Archives908, realize the other option is a likely tban from AA2, and that would be the likely outcome if you ended up back here again. Valereee (talk) 14:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a bit surprised everyone's on board with just a warning for what happened here (including trying to pretend the issue here is from 2021 rather than diffs about 2024), but sure. I would just say that if this were to repeat we'd be going to an indefinite topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To clarify, my position is that the minimum we should do is an only warning. I'd be fine just going straight to a topic ban, but I figured I'd mention the lightest action we should take firs since I'm pretty sure I already have a reputation as a hanging judge. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there any appetite to going straight to a topic ban in this case? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking at their top edited articles, this editor is interested almost completely in Armenia. Could we do a time-limited topic ban rather than an indef? My reasoning is that an AE indef tban is incredibly difficult to appeal. With a stated caveat to the editor: we want you to show you can edit outside of Armenia unproblematically, so if you just stop editing for (length of tban) and then jump right back in to editing problematically there, I'd support an indef tban. Valereee (talk) 14:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's why I like time and edit limited tbans instead. 6 months and 500 or 1000 edits requires them to edit outside of the topic and gives those assessing an appeal something to look at. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would have also proposed a time limited topic ban (though I'd have done 3 months). This editor has 2700+ edits over the last six months and so I think a 6 month + 500 (non-gamed) edit sanction is reasonable in this case. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Works for me, either a 3- or 6-month, + 500 non-gamed. Valereee (talk) 15:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I oppose a topic-ban at this time. The disputed edits relate to a single issue, and there is currently a discussion on the talkpage that should resolve the disagreement. Moreover, the broad scope of a typical AA2 topic-ban far exceeds what would be necessary here. A logged warning to move sooner to the talkpage when edits are reverted would be much more proportionate to the offense. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:04, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think this rises to the level of a TBAN. Reverting different editors over a long period of time is what you expect to see if there is a popular misconception about something - my edit-history looks like this not infrequently. The latest revert is not ideal - they should have the discussion play out - but this is the same STATUSQUO vs ONUS problem we've seen elsewhere, and for that alone I'm not willing to sanction. The statement here is more of a problem - there is distinct disingenuousness on display. But taken in sum I would prefer a logged warning, or possibly a 1RR restriction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ScottishFinnishRadish, Valereee, Barkeep49, and Newyorkbrad: It would seem we're not in agreement here. This has been open a while and we should move toward closure; absent consensus I would suggest closing with no action, but if any of you still feel strongly that a sanction is needed I'm open to hearing arguments for it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I see a rough consensus for a logged/only warning, with the assumption that Barkeep49 is open to a lesser sanction if that is where consensus is headed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there any opposition to a logged/only warning? Valereee (talk) 13:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was only proposing a limited topic ban and while I think that better, have no real objections to a logged warning as long as we're in general agreement that if this behavior continues - particularly if there is further self-description of their behavior which is plainly contradicted by facts - that the next step might be a full topic ban rather than something more targeted. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is the rub, getting a second chance with a warning means the next slip up, even if not terribly severe, will probably jump a ways up the ladder of sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closing with a warning, and a note that a next offence will probably receive more stringent sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bohemian Baltimore

Bohemian Baltimore is topic banned from the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people, broadly construed. They are further warned against making accusations or casting aspersions without evidence. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Bohemian Baltimore

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Morbidthoughts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Bohemian Baltimore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 19:52, 25 October 2024 Adding self-identification category to Grant Fuhr without direct support from article and its cited sources. Reverted by me.
  2. 18:35, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Was reverted by User:Lewisguile noting same issue.
  3. 18:34, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Reverted by Lewisguile noting same issue.
  4. 16:43, 22 October 2024 Replacing Navajo People category with self-identification Indigenous Mexican category. Reverted by me because neither article text nor its cited sources verify self-identification.
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 07:49, 30 May 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I first learned about Bohemian Baltimore's disputed edits that introduce a self-identification qualifier to biographies of living people without explicit support from RSes on a May BLP Noticeboard discussion about Patricia Norby.[126] Consensus was against these edits. As far as I can tell, Bohemian Baltimore has made hundreds of this type of edits since 2023, mostly by use of categories.[127] The categories are very contentious themselves based on a prior CfD discussion.[128] I have reverted many of these edits and previously warned Bohemian Baltimore in August about this.[129][130][131]

I believe Bohemian Baltimore should be barred from BLPs involving Native/Indigenous topics.

Despite YuchiTown's attempt to rationalise the self-identification label, I'd like the reviewing administrators to consider what also happened when the categories were linked to the individual biographies as raised in the CfD discussion. It is not just the word self-identify that is added. When people click on the category page, they can see variations of the following summary about the listed people: "This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have _____ ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no ______ heritage at all." with a later Pretendian link. BB created these categories and their corresponding summaries[132][133][134][135] and then linked people to these non-neutral contentions without direct unchained support from RSes. Think of the impact these unsourced gatekeeping assertions have on people. Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49,@Seraphimblade, @ScottishFinnishRadish Similar to Hemiauchenia's example, I thought it was weird that BB brought up a lack of literacy and racism[136] in a discussion about whether a third-party report of a DNA test supported a self-identification of descent category. BB questioned another user's reading comprehension[137] in the Norby talk page discussion when that person objected about self-identification on OR grounds. Morbidthoughts (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[138]

Discussion concerning Bohemian Baltimore

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Bohemian Baltimore

I do not appreciate this transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Wikipedia. Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship. As for the ArbCom discussion, where is this "consensus"? Where is this stated and by whom? What binding precedent was set or rules established for editing? Please, enlighten me. What exactly am I missing here? It is very disappointing and alarming that this user is deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors. This is not the first time this editor has defamed or harassed me, based on his own idiosyncratic and self-declared definition of self-identification. There are many ways to handle disputes. Trying to get me banned from editing is outrageous and controlling and it undermines Wikipedia's diversity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Raladic Please stick to the topic. I regard dragging these long dead and irrelevant debates into this conversation as a smear. I made an attempt to improve visibility for gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual people; to address erasure and invisibility of LGBT people, as a proud member of the LGBT community. I will not apologize for being queer. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish What knowledge do you have of tribal citizenship? Is this a topic you have attempted to research and educate yourself on before declaring that I should be banned? Tribal citizenship is very much verifiable and defining. The fact that the Taino have no tribal citizenship is not "original research". It's simply a fact. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 17:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee American Indian tribes under law are sovereign nations with citizens. There are neo-Taíno revivalist organizations that promote Taíno identity and who promote reviving a distinct Taíno culture, which was assimilated into the Spanish-speaking Puerto Rican culture centuries ago. However, these non-profit organizations are not tribes. Typically, they are registered as 501c3s. They have no citizens. They have no sovereignty. The basis of their identity is purely through their own self-identification, rather than any legal status. Whether or not a group should be recognized as a tribe is an opinion. Not that my opinion really matters, but I know of several groups of American Indian descendants who have no recognition as a tribe, but who I think should be recognized. The Taíno revivalists lack of any sovereign nation is a fact, not an opinion. A Puerto Rican who self-identifies as Taíno is simply a US citizen. Whereas, for example, an enrolled Cherokee Nation member is both a citizen of the US and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Newyorkbrad In the United States, American Indian tribes are defined as "domestic dependent, sovereign nations" under law with government-to-government relationships with the US government. Members of tribes are citizens of sovereign nations. Being Native American is a matter of citizenship and sovereignty, not merely a question of race, color, ethnicity, or ancestry. There are no Taíno tribes in the United States. Due to genocide, disease, assimilation and other factors, the Taíno assimilated into the larger Puerto Rican population. The Taíno language is extinct. The Taíno as a culturally distinct people have not existed for centuries. In recent years, some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage. These neo-Taínos self-identify as Indigenous due to centuries old Indigenous ancestry. No Taíno group is recognized as a sovereign nation. That is to say, neo-Taíno identity is inherently a question of self-identification rather than citizenship in a sovereign nation. Puerto Ricans who self-identify as neo-Taíno are US citizens and they have no additional tribal citizenship. The term "self-identification", while wrongly perceived by some uninformed white editors as a pejorative term, is actually widely used by Indigenous peoples. The term is used by the Department of the Interior, the United Nations, the Organization of American States, and many other bodies. The fact that neo-Taíno revivalists have no recognition as sovereign nations is just that, a fact. The question of whether a neo-Taíno group should be recognized is a separate matter. That's an opinion. Their lack of sovereignty is not an opinion. It is a fact. Right now, historical Taíno people of Puerto Rico who lived during colonial and pre-colonial times are in the category Category:Taíno people from Puerto Rico. Whereas, neo-Taíno revivalists were listed under Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent. That category was emptied and nominated for deletion. The people who were in the category are now under Category:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent. The historic Taíno people are clearly distinct from neo-Taíno revivalists who invoke DNA heritage, and for navigational purposes there should be separate categories for these separate groups of people. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Raladic I really despise having to re-hash ancient and irrelevant drama, but some of the categories I created were actually kept. So actually, it was a useful and productive conversation about the visibility of queer people within the ace community, and about the definition of bisexuality (and the "two or more genders" definition I used is actually widespread and normative, despite Wikipedia's fossilized conservatism on these matters). I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people. Your intent doesn't really make a difference. To assume good faith, I am sure you and Mason think of yourselves as harmlessly correcting mistakes. Whereas, I view it as objectively homophobic as it creates a hostile environment for queer editors. I do not feel welcomed or respected as a queer person on Wikipedia. I feel defamed and excluded. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Theleekycauldron Unbelievable. Name one time there has been a "behavioral problem" in regards to Jewish topics. I'm a queer Jew and I have contributed greatly to queer, Jewish, and queer Jewish topics on Wikipedia. This discussion has clearly gotten out of hand. The proposal was to topic ban me from Indigenous self-identification. Now, I am being told I should basically be banned from almost every topic I focus on. This is just censorship, at this point. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Seraphimblade I discuss the atmosphere of racism and homophobia on Wikipedia, problems I consider structural rather than individual. This is something Wikipedia acknowledges is a problem, for example, in these articles: Racial bias on Wikipedia, Gender bias on Wikipedia. I do not say that a person is a racist or a homophobe in any of the cited examples. My concern here is whether this amounts to tone policing or not, and I worry that clamping down on editors for discussing problems of perceived or actual racial bias or any other kind of bias will create a chilling climate that discourages diverse voices from participating. Particularly when what is widely considered acceptable evidence or an acceptable argument often falls in the favor of the majority group. I think it is also important to remember that perceptions of who is "aggressive" and who is merely assertive or blunt is often colored by biases of various kinds; whether they be sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, or economic. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Theleekycauldron I would appreciate factual statements, rather than false statements. Name one time I called anyone an idiot on Wikipedia. Where have I stated that someone was acting in bad faith? I talk about Racial bias on Wikipedia, and indeed there's a whole article about the problem, because Wikipedia acknowledges that it is a problem. Discussing the problem of racism is not maligning people. And if we are supposed to be quiet and hush about the racial bias on Wikipedia, then that silences the ability of diverse voices to participate and it hold Wikipedia back. Saying that I should be topic banned from basically everything I edit because I'm apparently not nice enough or pleasing enough is addressing my personality, not the substance of what I write. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ScottishFinnishRadish As I mentioned and linked above, there's been a whisper campaign on Tumblr to "stop" me and other editors (including @User:Doug Weller, for some inexplicable reason). Pingnova and at least one other Wikipedia editor (prismatic-bell, Wiki username unknown) have participated in this discussion, that we know of. There could be others. The Tumblr user Moniquill (Monique "Blackgoose" Poirier of the Seaconke Wampanoag Tribe) and her followers have insinuated that because they disagree with my Indigenous-related editing, that I'm automatically suspicious on any Jewish or LGBTQ matter. My Jewish editing has never been contested. My LGBTQ editing of many, many years was questioned on one occasion based on a differing opinion on who is LGBTQ (the question was whether asexuals who identify as straight are queer, believe it or not), and some of the categories I created were actually kept in those discussions. So, the idea that I am some "controversial" person is a manufactured idea being promoted by individuals who have a vested interest in a particular Indigenous viewpoint, and vested interests in me being quiet. I think that's wrong and that I'm being unfairly maligned. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Vanamonde93 It's also a long-dead dispute that was decided upon and the decisions of which I respected, and it has not been an issue since. Furthermore, some of the categories I created were actually kept, so not all of the edits I made were contested let alone deleted. I'm concerned that my personality is under scrutiny here when we should be focusing on the subject of Indigenous self-identification. I'm also alarmed that some Wikipedia editors have spoken negatively about me on Tumblr, which makes me fear that canvassing in happening. This thread in particular on Tumblr attacks me and insinuates that I might be anti-Jewish or anti-LGBTQ (I'm a queer Jew), simply because they objected to my Native-related edits. So I find it suspicious that all of the issues in that Tumblr thread are being dredged up here, when the issue was narrowly about Indigenous self-identification. The Tumblr user prismatic-bell, who also mentions being a Wikipedia editor, wrote: "Would it be worth it to see if there’s overlap between these malicious editors, and if so, make that an additional angle of approach? I feel like the more groups we can prove are being harmed, the more likely Wikipedia will be to remedy the issue", as well as later writing "And what do we do to stop them, re: the rest?", suggesting they are advocating that something be done against me and other editors. The editor Doug Weller is also singled out for scrutiny. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Barkeep49 If "aspersions and accusations are important to note", then I would argue that the above mentioned off-wiki whisper campaign to "stop" me and other editors, involving at least two Wikipedia editors (one of whom is right here in this discussion) is also something to be noted. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Seraphimblade Notifying you of this whisper campaign as well. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Yuchitown I think now that we see people expanding the question, and saying that I should be banned from all Indigenous topics and all Jewish topics and all LGBTQ topics, and perhaps even banned from all topics related to any "marginalized peoples", that this is no longer a question of policy. It's a question of personality. Effectively, a number of people are chiming in to advocate that I simply be banned from editing almost every topic I focus on. That's censorship targeting an individual. It's harmful to me, but beyond that, it harms Wikipedia and reduces the diversity of voices here. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ScottishFinnishRadish When I wrote, "I hope these are mistakes on your part", that is explicitly NOT claiming that the person is racist. And that person agreed that it was a mistake, so I was correct. Furthermore, I never accused the person above of being homophobic themselves. In fact, I explicitly stated that I did not think that person was acting in bad faith. I am surprised that my words are being characterized as overly harsh, when on both occasions I went out of my way to acknowledge that the other person was likely simply mistaken. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ScottishFinnishRadish I would also like to know why I would be banned from editing on Jewish-related topics. My Jewish-related editing has never been disputed, nor has anyone here given a reason any example of problematic editing around Jews/Judaism. Not examples, let alone a pattern. This is overkill. It's extreme and it makes zero sense. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @ScottishFinnishRadish Furthermore, what does "self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people" even mean? That's so broad it could mean almost anything. Am I going to be slapped with a warning, for example, if I categorize someone as an "American writer", because that's a reference to citizenship? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Raladic

A similar issue around identities also occurred a few months ago in the LGBTQ space when @BB created a series of erroneous categories and tried to shift categories into sub-categories that would mis-categorize people with different LGBTQ identities. Refer to User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Aromanticism and Asexuality are the A of LGBTQIA+ and Intersex is the I and is inherently an LGBTQIA+ identity and this one User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Pansexuality is not the same as bisexuality by @Mason for context. And the resulting cleanup that had to be made afterwards per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 7#Category:LGBT asexual people these wrong categorizations. So it does appear that the user may have a pattern of, while good-faith, wrong categorizations of BLPs, which are problematic, so a warning to be more careful of working on categorization of BLPs may be appropriate. Raladic (talk) 03:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No smear is intended, I merely pointed out that as I said above, that while I fully believe you made the changes in good faith, they were clerically incorrect as was pointed out in the subsequent discussions. I also fully appreciate you trying to increase visibility for LGBTQ people, as that is where I spend a lot of my time on Wikipedia as well as a queer person myself. Raladic (talk) 14:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned that it appears that BB is doubling down with their latest series of replies today and have still not struck/retracted their accusation here, despite having been asked by @Vanamonde93 several days ago here. It looks like they are not able to see their own baseless accusations when all the other editors did point out an erroneous categorization on their part and by the looks of this here, they still disagree despite multiple editors having explained their misunderstanding. Raladic (talk) 02:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Valereee

I had similar interactions at Talk:Indigenous_cuisine_of_the_Americas#Content/context_removal? regarding removal of identification of individuals as native American in Wikivoice over the tribe not being recognized by federal/state governments, at that article and at Louis Trevino and Vincent Medina. BB wanted to insert 'self-identify as'. They did drop it after I pointed out the NYT was calling them Ohlone and another editor reverted them, but BB does seem to be pretty focussed on the concept of self-identification (vs. identifying in WV) of BLPs if they don't agree a group officially exists or how it's defined? Valereee (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NYB, I'd like to hear that explanation w/re: identification of members of any tribe that isn't officially recognized by a government body. Valereee (talk) 15:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bohemian Baltimore, so you are saying that if a tribe isn't officially recognized by a government body, Wikipedia should be referring to folks as "self-identified", even if RS are referring to them as tribal members, because no one can actually be a member of a such a tribe? Valereee (talk) 17:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have Shoshone ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no Shoshone heritage at all is pointy, RGW, and a BLP vio. I'm sympathetic to the fact there are many people out there making such false claims, but I feel like this is basically categorizing people as liars. Valereee (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Yuchitown

Bohemian Baltimore should not be banned from Native American topics. None of their edits to topics relating to Indian Country have been controversial or contested. Instead, MorbidThoughts has followed Bohemian Baltimore around and decided unilaterally that “self-identified” must be censored with certain individuals from Wikipedia. I was part of the Norby noticeboard discussion; the consensus was that New York Post was not an WP:RS and WP:CLAIM precludes the use of the word “claim” in BLPs. Native American identity is controversial and contested; it is a unique political identity in the United States.[139] In published literature about Native American identity, variations of “self-identified” are used freely (examples here). Self-identified does not mean “fraud”; it means exactly what the dictionary states: “To identify or describe oneself as belonging to a particular category or group of people; to assign a particular characteristic or categorization to oneself.”[140] A unique phenomenon has evolved in the US of tens of thousands of people believing and stating they have Native American ancestry without substantiating that belief (discussion and citations can be found at Cherokee descent). Making a statement of Native American descent is self-identification. I’ve yet to see anyone produce a published citation saying that the term “self-identification” is an unacceptable term in regard to statements of Native American descent. If MorbidThoughts would like to propose the censorship of this term as Wikipedia policy, they need to go through that process, as opposed to unilaterally deciding it is Wikipedia policy and attempting to get Bohemian Baltimore topic-banned based on their unsourced, personal feelings. Yuchitown (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For those suggesting a topic ban, I'd just like reiterate that Bohemian Baltimore's edits to topics related to Indian Country and to federally recognized tribes have not be remotely controversial and have been extremely helpful. The contested gray area of unrecognized organizations and individuals have been the topic areas where other editors have made pushbacks. It would be a loss to the encyclopedia to lose this editor's contributions to Indian Country topics. These two topic areas are not the same. Yuchitown (talk) 19:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aquillion

My concern reading this, conductwise, is WP:FAIT - it is clear from eg. the CFD discussion (where Baltimore participated) that the categories Bohemian Baltimore created are highly contentious. Numerous other discussions and objections since have made that even more clear. Yet they seem to have taken the no-consensus outcome as a green light to go around making hundreds of replacements, effectively trying to ram through the template's usage via FAIT without ever going through the discussion necessary to do so. Obviously that discussion is now necessary, but since they've shown that they're not going to wait on it, my suggestion is that Bohemian Baltimore be barred from implying that any aspect of someone's identity is self-identified, or creating, using, applying, or reapplying any categories of that nature until / unless a clear affirmative consensus is reached to do so or under what circumstances to do so. I don't think that this is just a content dispute - that would be true if this was just on one or two articles; WP:BOLD protects a few individual edits. But making the sorts of systematic changes that Bohemian Baltimore has been doing after editors have objected is trying to force your opinions through by FAIT and is inappropriate. --Aquillion (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Clayoquot

Courtesy ping to HouseBlaster who closed the relevant CFD discussion as "no consensus, therefore keep". Some of the statements being made here could be read as challenging that closure. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49 I agree that there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. In practice though, since it's rare for RS to say that a given individual self-identifies as X, requiring RS to use a category is almost the same thing as deleting the category. I like your thinking that a community noticeboard discussion on how to use "self-identify" in BLPs could be fruitful. Many participants in the CfD discussion tried to discuss that issue but it probably wasn't the right venue. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A core issue seems to be whether "self-identifies as..." is contentious material. In the CfD and on this page I see arguments both ways - to some it seems obviously contentious, and others put forth academically-sourced arguments that it's not contentious at all. A community consensus on whether it is or is not contentious would be helpful. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 20:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Bohemian Baltimore's wording in the category pages was a BLP violation. I fixed one just now and noticed that nobody else had tried to do it.[141] For the other non-deleted category pages named in this enforcement request, there has also been no effort made to edit the page to remove BLP problems.[142][143] (I will go fix them after I publish this comment). Re-editing a page is the first part of community-based dispute resolution and in some cases it has not been done, which suggests that very little community-based dispute resolution has been tried. Things seem to be headed in the direction of "If the community hasn't decided whether something is a BLP violation, file a complaint and the admins at AE will decide." Is that how Wikipedia is supposed to work? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nil Einne

In response to Yuchitown, the BLPN discussion established the obvious. You cannot claim someone "self-identifies" as something unless supported by sources. Whether you want to call it pejorative, it doesn't matter much. BLP policy establishes that we shouldn't be adding unsourced content to articles point blank which includes saying someone self-identifies when it isn't what the sources say is. If sources said something like "according to subject A, they are Navajo" or "subject A has informed us they are of Navajo descent" then perhaps we could count that as self identification. But when the source says [144] "Only when he was contacted by his birth mother decades later (a Fed-Ex package with photos and a letter) did he learn that his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian."; this isn't the same thing. We assume that sources have done what they feel is necessary to verify claims they present, and this source has said "his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian" not "his biological father self-identified" or "the person he believes is his biological father". Therefore we take this claim at face value as being true and don't add our own interpretations. From what I've seen, most of the time, there's no reliable secondary sources on whether the subject has tribal citizenship. So commentary on the lack of tribal citizenship isoften WP:OR based on primary sources (i.e. looking into records or worse asking the tribe themselves) or based on non RS (e.g. blogs). That said if RSS do mention lack of tribal citizenship we should present this in our article, and can consider how to handle this in categories. But it's unlikely via a self-identification one. Nil Einne (talk) 07:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of Bohemian Baltimore's problematic editing [145]. Removing the indigenous Mexican category is fine, was nothing in our article supporting it. But they not only added a self-identification category but added text to present the claim. The source they used [146] only says "Her maternal grandmother was of Spanish and Shoshone Native American ancestry". Nothing suggests this self-identification. The Walk of Fame probably doesn't have a reputation for fact checking so we IMO shouldn't present the claim of Shoshone ancestry as true. But we have no idea whether this was from Swank, a publicist or whatever else nor what evidence there is. With no source demonstrating this is a wider concern there's no reason to mention this at all. [147] Nil Einne (talk) 08:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hemiauchenia

Although this is not related to the conduct at hand, I was concerned by the baseless personal attacks Bohemian Baltimore made in Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal a few weeks ago, where he without foundation accuses editors in the discussion of displaying overt anti-Black racism [148] for having the audacity of... proposing that an article BB wrote be merged? Making baseless racism accusations is really unacceptable, especially for an editor with as many edits and as long a tenure as BB. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pingnova

Statement by Andrevan

I'd like to offer Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal from last month, Bohemian Baltimore accused other editors of anti-Black racism[149] because they proposed merging Black Jews in New York City and had extensively edited that article to remove the Black Hebrew Israelite content, based on a discussion at Fringe noticeboard. Whether or not you disagree with the idea that Black Hebrew Israelites and Black Jews shouldn't be mixed together or whether or not you agree that there is not enough material to have a separate article about Black Jews in New York City versus being part of African-American Jews, I don't think it's really appropriate to accuse editors of racism simply for those editorial content decisions.Andre🚐 03:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I see this was already mentioned, I missed it. Andre🚐 03:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by theleekycauldron

Here's a list of things Bohemian Baltimore has said, all of which are in violation of WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and/or WP:ASPERSION:

  • They questioned CaroleHenson on whether or not they had a "reading comprehension issue".
  • They said everyone in this thread was "erasing Black Jews" because they wanted to merge Black Jews in New York City to African-American Jews. (Which, as Warrenmck tried to explain to them, doesn't erase Black Jews, but they didn't hear that.)
  • They also said in the same thread that Warrenmck was "turn[ing] this into an anti-Black witch hunt" for trying to remove Black Hebrew Israelites content from Black Jews in New York City.
  • They said in an edit summary that Warrenmck's removal of content about a Black Orthodox Jew in the midst of the same removal was "smearing" before they had a chance to say, as they did an hour later, that it was a mistake. Never apologized or retracted it. (I believe it was them who said that claiming that editors are disingenuous in intention is tantamount to calling them liars.)
  • They referred to this AE filing as a transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Wikipedia, which I see no evidence of.
  • They said the thread filer is deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors, which they did not provide evidence for.
  • They implied in this thread that Raladic wants them to apologize for being queer, when they haven't come close to saying any such thing.
  • They insisted that merging Category:LGBT asexual women to Category:Asexual women was erasure of asexual and intersex people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender and not a recognition that asexual women are broadly accepted as part of the LGBT community.

theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Bohemian Baltimore

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I'm interested in hearing Bohemian Baltimore's response while I go through the background. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship. None of this is covered in the articles, and appears to be WP:OR. WP:CATDEFINE says A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place. These edits clearly fail that bar for categorization. I'm thinking a topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The diffs above are not about tribal citizenship, but about descent. What you say above, some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage, is about being of Taino descent. Everything else you've said about this falls firmly under WP:OR as it applies to specific living people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Clayoquot, if there is this much disagreement about it then it is fairly plainly contentious. WP:BLP says Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing. Even if the self-identified label is neutral or even positive there is clearly contention about its use. In this situation no sources have been provided using the label, so it is unsourced, and arguments made here about its inclusion amount to WP:OR. Content policies, with OR specifically called out, must be strictly followed when dealing with BLPs.
    I agree that there should be a broad community discussion about this, but as it stands applying the label without consensus and sourcing is a violation of our BLP policy. These violations have been persistent, and I would say after the amount of discussion on the topic clearly demonstrating a lack of consensus for inclusion, egregious. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Bohemian Baltimore: Before I evaluate this, can you please clarify what you mean by "tribal citizenship" as a member of the Taino people? I am certainly not an expert, but my understanding is that the Taino people are not a legally organized tribe, and that the ongoing efforts to create a registry of Taino citizens are unofficial and are themselves based on self-identification and voluntary registration. What criteria are you using to separate people whom you feel belong in Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent as opposed to Category:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The idea, as Valereee writes, that we can only identify a characteristic of a person if it is government recognized regardless of what RS says (meaning, for instance, we could possibly have to label someone born in Ontario as "self-identified male/female/non-binary" because their birth certificates do not require any gender/sex field[150]) strikes me as an extreme position. But I feel we're in content decision territory here rather than BLP contentious topic violations and so this would either need to go to a community noticeboard - where there are more options for an uneasy mixing of the two - or have a content decision on this that Bohemian Baltimore is then violating in order for us to sanction them here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Although there is not firmly established consensus, with BLP that defaults to exclude contentious labeling. Bohemian Baltimore is obviously aware of the contentious nature of these edits, and continues to make them without consensus or sourcing. To me that falls far enough on the wrong side of WP:BLP that a narrow topic ban on the identification of indigenous peoples, even if limited to such a time as consensus supports their position, is called for. Trying to force through contentious labels on BLPs without consensus is disruptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a really good point and you've convinced me that we can address the issue here. Per the other feedback, I'm definitely not ready to topic ban them from indigenous people and I wonder if even your narrow topic ban could impact positive work mentioned by some others above. So what if instead we issue a consensus required to change the identification of indigenous people restriction? Obviously we normally apply CR to articles not editors, but in this case I think them needing to get consensus before changing would address the issue at hand while still allowing them to do the other work. And per your comment - should there be a topic wide consensus formed (through an appropriate RfC held at a place like a Village pump) that these kinds of changes are appropriate the restriction effectively goes away. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Clayoquot there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. The fact that there is not even consensus about its existence - I read that CfD at the time - does actually say to me that a higher degree of care is needed by those who do use it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bohemian Baltimore needs to recognize that whatever their beliefs may be about the logical categorization of people of Taino heritage vs other indigenous groups, Wikipedia cannot apply labels unsupported by reliable sources. Absent such recognition I think the TBAN SFR proposes is necessary. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Bohemian Baltimore If an editor were engaging in homophobic behavior toward you, they would be sanctioned for it. For that very reason, it's a serious accusation that needs to be backed up by evidence. I'm not seeing anything in this discussion that constitutes a homophobic attack. Please provide evidence, or retract that claim. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it should be clear just from reading the discussions over this matter that this is clearly a contentious thing to say about someone. So, we don't need to get into great intricacy of what a rather obscure part of the MOS says, or anything like that. WP:BLP is very clear on the point: Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Saying "self-identifies" is in this case clearly contentious. If the sources don't unambiguously support that, it must be removed immediately and may not be restored without clear and unambiguous consensus, and anyone who does unilaterally restore it is engaged in sanctionable misconduct. I would also reiterate that there is a difference between the question of a category's existence, and its appropriateness of use. Category:Drug dealers exists, and should, but its use on a given article could still most certainly be a violation of BLP unless reliable sources unequivocally back up that it belongs there. Similarly, it seems the issue is not the existence of these categories, but their use in a lot of particular instances where the sources do not seem to back that. As to the instant case, I have no objection to a topic ban for Bohemian Baltimore since they obviously have no plans to stop doing this without such a sanction, but I'm afraid that in itself, that will not solve the BLP issues here, which seem by now to have become quite widespread. I think we might need to consider wider-scale action to address that, but I'm not yet sure what that looks like. I see above that a "consensus required" provision was mentioned, and there is in principle no reason that a "consensus required" sanction could not be added to a category, so perhaps a first step could be a "consensus required" restriction to add (or re-add) these categories to any article? If we did that, topic bans on individuals may not be necessary, provided that they will in fact abide by that restriction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I could support such a sanction, but surely the first step is simply enforcing WP:NOR; categories may not be used without supporting sources that are in the article, and doing so is already grounds for sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm pretty sure we can make that type of sanction at AE with a rough consensus, but I'm with Vanamonde that we should start by enforcing policy around BLPs normally. I would hope that if editors see that we're taking action on this they'll be less likely to engage in the same type of editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, let's give that a try first then. Hopefully it will suffice, if not we can always look at it again later. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What is the "this" (that) which e're giving a first try? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people is what I proposed above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Do we have evidence of disruption with discussion? Because if not I'd still prefer we allow them that. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think we've been given evidence of that. I'm fine with a article space topic ban, unless evidence of disruption in discussions is provided. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The link to the discussion provided by Hemiauchenia does show poor behavior, and there was a second inappropriate comment. This does (somewhat) fall under the BLP CTOP, but is different than the issue we're discussing here. Combined with the aspersions above of homophobic attacks, I think along with the topic ban we should issue a warning about aspersions and accusations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Barkeep49, would you see the above as evidence of disruption with discussion? I know I certainly do, so I would be more in favor of an overall topic ban, discussion included, than an article-only one. Throwing around baseless accusations like that is quite disruptive to a discussion, and between here and the above article merge discussion, it seems to indicate that's a pattern of behavior, not a one-time mistake. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. That is evidence of disruption during discussions for me. It also is outside of the scope of the proposed topic ban. My bigger thinking is that I think Bohemian Baltimore is doing work the encyclopedia benefits from and so if there are ways we can have them focus on that work I'd like to try it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not think a topic-ban is needed at this time, unless there is evidence of additional problems after this discussion. I perceive the challenged edits as based on a good-faith understanding of the underlying issue, and as being quite defensible as within policy (since any living person's identification as of Taino descent may have a subjective component). Of course there are other arguments against changing the category (because the "self-identified" wording has an unjustified accusatory overtone), and consensus seems to be against doing so, but is there evidence that BB is now disregarding that consensus? If not, a reminder to be circumspect and to maintain civility on these sensitive and difficult topics hopefully should, in my view, be sufficient at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am surprised you find his answer to your Taino question sufficient @Newyorkbrad as that answer helped push me towards sanction. Ialso find the evidence presented by Nil Einne, Pingnova, and Valeree of problems sufficient for a topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Barkeep49: The consensus here seems to favor your view. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bohemian Baltimore's behavior is incredibly aggressive and disruptive. Reading through the diffs in this thread and the thread itself, I can't imagine how people are supposed to collaborate with them when they malign their detractors as idiots, bigots, and bad-faith actors without anything approaching evidence. (Look at Hemiauchenia's thread, the filer diffs, Raladic's thread, and literally this page.) I think the best solution here would be a topic ban from self-identification with marginalized groups, broadly construed, but since that's not a CTOP, i support topic ban per ScottishFinnishRadish. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the self-identification falls under BLP which is a CT and thus something we could do. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    a BLP self-identification with marginalized groups TBAN works for me :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    oh, trout Self-trout, I assumed SFR was proposing a topic ban from indigenous groups (which, as it turns out, isn't a CTOP either!), but they've actually proposed one around identification of BLPs with indigenous groups. I would extend it beyond indigenous groups, since they have the same behavioral problems in the Jewish and LGBTQ topic areas, but yes, support that suggestion too. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Bohemian Baltimore: I never said you used the word "idiot", just like I never said you used the words "bad-faith actor". I am going to list what you did say in a separate statement above, because the list is frankly too long to put here. Would recommend that other admins read it.
    But, no, you're not just "discussing the problem of racism", and no one is saying that you should be "quiet and hush about the racial bias on Wikipedia", and I'm not pearl-clutching ("feigning an overreaction with a typically bad-faith invocation of WP:CIVIL"). You have a pattern of accusing people of intentionally suppressing you and/or marginalized groups simply because they hold views that aren't yours, and that's not acceptable behavior. The reason I think your topic ban shouldn't be limited to Indigenous people is that your accusations and aspersions aren't, either. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Though it borders on blasphemy to disagree with Newyorkbrad about arbitration matters, I do disagree. Very basically BB is not showing a willingness to stick to what sources say. That's a problem anywhere, and particularly a problem in this fraught topic. I still support a TBAN with the scope suggested above. I recognize that there have been problems with categories on biographies of queer folk, but I'm leery of a TBAN there simply because it seems to me a recipe for wikilawyering, given that the dispute they were involved in was with respect to the boundaries of "LGBT". Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Vanamonde93: Please don't worry about disagreeing with me. I probably cast more solo dissenting votes while I was on the Committee than everyone else put together, so why should it stop now? Obviously there is a consensus here that agrees with you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • We just need a bit of clarification of where support lies, and we can wrap this up. We have on the table currently:
    1. A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, broadly construed
    2. A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, mainspace only, broadly construed
    3. A topic ban on self-identification of marginalized groups, broadly construed
    4. A warning for casting aspersions and accusations
  • I think marginalized groups is too blurry to make an effective topic ban. I believe there has been enough demonstration of issues with their discussions to go for the full topic ban on identification and citizenship of indigenous people without the allowance for talk discussion, but I'm not so opposed to allowing discussion that I would hold things up over it, although it looks like the rough consensus here covers talk pages as well. At the risk of adding another thing to consider this late into the process there's a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people (we'll call this 5), which covers marginalized groups without any blurry edges. If we think there is enough concern to be talking about specific tbans covering marginalized groups, LGBT people, and Jewish people then I think self-identification and citizenship of BLPs is tight enough to allow their editing to continue, but broad enough to stop disruption. Call me in support of 1, 4, and 5. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I support the bolded topic ban proposal (which I see as inclusive of discussion). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would support 1 and 5, and 4 in addition to but not instead of one of those. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For me we're going beyond the warning with the topic ban we're choosing to enact. But yes the aspersions and accusations are important to note. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support 4 and 5 simultaneously, oppose 1 and 2 as too narrow (although support 1 if 2, 3, and 5 don't gain consensus). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Barkeep49, are you opposed to the warning, or just ambivalent? Right now I would say we're on the edge of a consensus about the warning, with a solid consensus for the topic ban on the self-identification of living or recently deceased people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What is the warning doing here that the topic ban is not? We're not warning them for the other misbehavior they've displayed here - we're topic banning them. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people. is an example from this AE report. This and this are tangentially related. I see the topic ban as addressing the BLPvio, and the warning relating to communication style in general. I support the warning, but I also see that the reason for the warning is why you supported the broader topic ban that covers Talk: as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For me, 1 or 5 (I'm fine with either) addresses the issue of trying to force what has proven to be highly contentious material into BLPs, so that's the misconduct leading to a topic ban (and TBs normally also cover talk page participation, so we're not taking any highly unusual step including that). 4 addresses the issue that, in addition to that, Bohemian Baltimore seems to have gotten into a habit of casting aspersions (and some pretty serious ones; most people would certainly not like to be called racist, homophobic, or the like) in discussions, and will need to drop that habit, not just in this topic area but in any discussions they may participate in going forward. If, going forward, they are going to bring such an accusation against any editor, they will need rock-solid evidence for it, not just to throw it out there. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bohemian Baltimore, I have just had to move several comments from the admin discussion section to yours. Please comment only in your own section going forward. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't looked at BB's wider edits, but it seems to me that the narrow issue of categories could be satisfactorily resolved with an RfC. It could just be an RfC about categories related to indigenous peoples of North America. Then BB and everyone else will be required to conform to it. I'm dubious of Theleekycauldron's suggestion about a wider RfC as there would be more argument about the scope than about the result. Zerotalk 03:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Bohemian Baltimore: You've alluded to an off-wiki canvassing campaign against you taking place on Tumblr in your comments above. I see that you have provided some links, though I am aware that it can be a bit hard to fully share all of that information on Wikipedia. If there is relevant information you cannot share on-wiki, I do hope that you collect evidence of the off-wiki coordination and send it to the Arbitration Committee, which is competent to review that sort of stuff and to take actions based on off-wiki evidence. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm seeing a rough consensus for a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people and a warning for casting aspersions and making accusations. Barring any administrator objection I'll close with that result soon. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pyramids09

Pyramids09 is p-blocked for a week from Zionism and is warned not to violate the the consensus required provision and our policies on edit-warring. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Pyramids09

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Pyramids09 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions, the consensus required provision at Zionism
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 05:38, 31 October 2024 violation of the consensus required provision, restoring the edit that was reverted previously. Prior edits were this and this. It is also a dishonest edit summary, claiming that a substantive change to content was simply "Formatting and streamlining"


Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any


N/A

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 24 October 2024
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The user was reminded of the consensus required provision on their talk page 25 October after they violated the 1RR (first revert, second revert). They said they would propose on talk page. To date the user has 0 edits on the talk page.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Pyramids09

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Pyramids09

Hello. I am not going to try to defend my actions, because I am clearly in the wrong. I did not familiarize myself with the rules around contentious topics, such as the I/P conflict. I have been informed of my mistakes, and am now going through the proper procedure about editing. Thank you. Pyramids09 (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I should have been more clear with my edit summary, but there was no malicious intent to hide the edit. I just should have been more specific. Pyramids09 (talk) 21:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Moved from response to Valereee in admin section) Yes, I should have gotten consensus, but saying that all Zionist organizations use similar methods to achieve their political goals is nonsense. The Haganah policy of Havlagah was completely different to the methods that Irgun and especially Lehi used in conflict. But once again, should have gotten consensus Pyramids09 (talk) 22:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by xDanielx

This isn't the most experienced user, and the consensus-required restriction isn't obvious. I know it's one of the items in the edit notice, but it's visually similar to the usual extended-confirmed notice which we're all used to skipping over. Users probably need to be personally notified before we can really expect compliance. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

@XDanielx: Reported editor was advised in edit summary here and acknowledged the crp here along with a statement that they would seek consensus on the talk page. The subsequent reversion with a disguised edit summary simply ignores this. Still, at least now, they are making an attempt in talk. Selfstudier (talk) 10:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Selfstudier (talk) 10:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Pyramids09

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • This is a clear-cut violation of the consensus-required provision. I would like to hear from Pyramids09 to determine what the most appropriate response would be. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm fine with the warning SFR proposes, but I'm inclined to think a page-block is also in order. Of the very many highly charged pages in this area, Zionism is possibly the most contentious - so if someone feels the need to be deceptive while editing it (which they still haven't acknowledged), a break from it feels indicated to me. A page-block is pretty mild, as sanctions go. Vanamonde93 (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I normally go with a week pblock for a first offense. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So, a week pblock + logged warning? I can close with that in a little while if I hear no objections. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Plain consensus required violation, and I'm also not happy with the false edit summary when yet again reverting to their preferred prose. Normally I go with a one week pblock for first offenses like this, but the edit summary might be enough to step it up a bit. Waiting to see their statement. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Pyramids09, can you explain your misleading edit summary here? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm thinking a warning for edit warring/violating consensus required, and for using disingenuous edit summaries, with a note that further violations will likely result in sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:08, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pyramids09, you've edited since this was filed, so we can assume you've seen the notification. Would you like to make a statement? This is not something that will go away if you ignore it. Valereee (talk) 14:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Pyramids09, "More clear" with the edit summary? I'm having a really hard time seeing it as simply not being clear enough. You changed:
    Differences within the mainstream Zionist groups lie primarily in their presentation and ethos, having adopted similar strategies to achieve their political goals, in particular in the use of violence and compulsory transfer to deal with the presence of the local Palestinian, non-Jewish population.
    to:
    Differences within the mainstream Zionist groups lie both in their presentation and ethos, as well as strategies to achieve political goals.
How is this simply "formatting and streamlining"? How is this simply not clear enough or not specific enough? It completely changes the content in a profound way. I think you should think about what you're telling us here. Valereee (talk) 22:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Yes, I should have gotten consensus, but saying that all Zionist organizations use similar methods to achieve their political goals is nonsense. You seem to be saying "I wanted to change content at a CTOP because I knew that content was incorrect, but I didn't want to have to go argue about it first, so I decided to use a vague and disingenuous edit summary, hoping no one would check." Valereee (talk) 13:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Shahray

Appeal declined. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user
Shahray (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Shahray (talk) 10:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sanction being appealed
ban for three months from editing anything related to the history of Ukraine and/or the Rus', see this thread [151]
Administrator imposing the sanction
Asilvering (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Notification of that administrator
[152]

Statement by Shahray

I was topic banned by another editor for three months from editing "anything related to history of Ukraine or Rus', broadly interpreted". I was accused in "edit warring" in this topic. I acknowledge the fact that I was banned previously for edit warring, and understood the issue. But regarding this case, I believe I was wrongly banned, because of the following reasons:

1. This ban was initially appealed by Mellk. After a few responses on the talk page where I tried to discuss with them proposed changes in the article, they dropped out of discussion [153], refused to answer afterwards and headed to Asilvering's talk page instead, where they stated:"I still find it impossible to discuss with Shahray" [154]. Asilvering supported their behavior and even suggested to go to Notice Board, basing it solely on the fact that I was banned two times previously (one time by Asilvering). Mellk themself made some unconstractive reverts and edits with barely any explanation given [155] [156] [157], and even could respond to me from other editor perspective [158] without their approval first. I didn't have any such problem with other editors and followed the suggestions they've given to me [159].

2. I usually followed one revert rule everywhere and didn't continue to revert Mellk and tried to discuss instead.

3. Asilvering might unconstractively target me. Besides the support they gave to Mellk's behavior mentioned above, on their talk page, they ignored my comment and concerns about Mellk [160], and told them instead to "use it as evidence". Their block doesn't appears to be constructive either. I recently made RFC in Second Bulgarian Empire article about "Russian" anachronisms, but they removed it [161]even though there was not a single word about "Ukraine" or "Rus'".

I genuinely apologize where I could have made a few more reverts and didn't initially discussed. I won't revert (restore my changes) entirely if that helps. I will only revert changes done by other editors without reaching consensus. At least I am requesting to allow me to edit talk pages to broadly request comment from community for my changes like I did in Second Bulgarian Empire article.

  • @Vanamonde93, what have you considered as evidence? What Mellk quoted in first sentence is my comment regarding this block [162], with time I looked back at my behaviour there and and understood that I was a bit too pushing with my edits. But it's not appropriate to take this as evidence for the current case, I tried to follow 1 revert rule everywhere and discuss, and I addressed this to Mellk [163], which they didn't apperently denied. Shahray (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @ScottishFinnishRadish, no it's not reasonable. You haven't provided any arguments for it to be reasonable and ignored what I said or apologizes I provided. Please judge fairly and reconsider your decision. Shahray (talk) 14:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC) Comment moved to own section. Please comment only in this section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Seraphimblade, I don't need to wait for 3 months, instead we can solve the problem quickly here and I won't do any disruptions again. I won't revert (restore my changes) at all if that helps, or revert only the changes other editors make which they haven't reached consensus for. My apologies for possible disruptions I have caused, but I promise I won't restore my content anymore without carefully reaching consensus. I hope for your understanding as well. Shahray (talk) 14:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Asilvering

Nothing much further to say, but happy to answer any questions. Please also see User talk:Asilvering#topic ban? -- asilvering (talk) 14:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Shahray

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ymblanter

Since the user does not seem to have understood why they were topic-banned, it might be a good idea to make the topic ban of indefinite duration, appealable in 3 months.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Shahray

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • Shahray was sanctioned in response to this ANI discussion. The evidence there shows they are unable or unwilling to understand that they have not appropriately discussed contentious edits they have made, and bad conduct by other editors does not excuse that. I would decline this appeal. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline. This was a perfectly reasonable enforcement action. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shahray seems to be under the impression that "xRR" is an entitlement. Since this is a somewhat common misconception, I'll clear that up in hopes that in three months time things can go better. "xRR" means that "If you revert more than x times in 24 hours, you are almost certainly edit warring." It does not mean "If you revert fewer than x times in 24 hours, you are not edit warring." Repeated reverts, even if they technically stay under the xRR limit, can still be disruptive and cause for sanction. I don't see this as an unreasonable sanction, and would decline this appeal. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shahray's persistent inability to understand where to place their responses in an AE discussion does not inspire confidence that they suddenly understand the finer points of CTOPs editing. signed, Rosguill talk 14:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline. This is a singularly unpersuasive appeal, and is clear that the editor does not understand the reason for the sanction. Cullen328 (talk) 22:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request for 1RR at Fascism

Fascism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article had 1RR imposed indefinitely in 2009, by KrakatoaKatie, as an individual admin action. Judging based on comments so far, there's uncertainty about whether the restriction is enforceable. The options are to leave the restriction in limbo, remove the restriction, or have an admin adopt the restriction explicitly under CT, potentially AmPol. Are any admins willing to do so? There has been recent, AmPol-adjacent disruption of the article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's a serious issue with an article restriction stuck in limbo like this. Some admins and editors think it's in place and enforceable, and others think it's misplace and unenforceable. We should move in one direction or the other. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is a bit of a pickle, since the content being edit warred over isn't really AP2, persay, so placing 1RR as a CTOP action is a bit squirrely. I don't think anyone would object to using AmPol in this way, but if someone did they would have a point that it is a borderline use of CTOP sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To make the connection a bit more explicit:
  1. The main person recently edit warring to remove "far-right" as a descriptor of fascism is Johnny Spasm. I'll drop a formal notice at their talk page, but to be clear, I'm not advocating for enforcement action against him. Diffs of removal: 1, 2, 3, 4.
  2. JS contextualized this repeated removal as an American-politics-related action in comments at the talk page:
    1. dismissing the view of another editor and making assertions about their politics because they "live in Seattle, Washington" (diff)
    2. identifying as an "American with far right beliefs" and arguing that "it is the far left in America that displays more fascist values than the far right", calling Biden out specifically (diff)
    3. Criticizes the descriptor's inclusion while "both candidates in the US Presidential election are throwing around the word fascism" ([164])
If that's not enough of a connection, it's unlikely that enforcement of the 1RR could be reasonably connected to any other CT, and the restriction should be removed. Admins here, with experience judging which articles are covered by which CTs, are best placed to make the call to either adopt the restriction or remove it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Before assuming this as a CTOP action, has there been much edit warring other than the recent edit warring that resulted in a block? For an indefinite 1RR there should be a substantial history of edit warring. That 1RR looked like it was a response to an edit war almost 15 years ago, so absent more disruption I'd say let it lapse. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty actively edited, with multiple reversions in the past week. I have no objection to allowing it to lapse, though, replacing it if needed. KKatie hasn't edited in a week, maybe suspense for a few days as not urgent? Valereee (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There has not been any other recent major edit warring. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was a minor edit war over the same left v. right issue on 10 November. Three editors involved, and one reverted twice. That editor has a brief enough edit history that it's easily gleaned that they are American or have a predominant interest in American topics. Only edit to a political bio is an American political bio.
Again, I wouldn't object to someone determining that this is not enough disruption and removing the restriction. Either side of this knife's edge would be good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we should have a decision one way or another, but unless it's pressing I'm willing to wait a bit longer for KrakatoaKatie to weigh in. At this point I'm coming down on the side of removing 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gosh, I missed this discussion somehow. Sorry, everybody. :-( If there's no need, by all means let's lift it. I remember placing this, which is a minor miracle considering I don't remember to rinse the conditioner from my hair sometimes, and it was a barn burner of an edit war back then. I'm all for lifting stuff that's no longer necessary. Katietalk 14:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like lifting the restriction is agreed but I checked a couple of recent edits that asserted fascism is a far-left ideology (one editor went on to make the same claim regarding Nazism), and it is crystal-clear that it is an AP issue. I know we're supposed to be nice but edits like that warrant a NOTHERE or CIR indef, IMHO. While we have to welcome new editors, we also have a duty to support established editors who get worn down by the grinding river of ignorance. Johnuniq (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CoolAndUniqueUsername

Closing with no action. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning CoolAndUniqueUsername

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Chess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:PIA4, specifically the implied ban on gaming edits to bypass the 500/30 rule.
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

CoolAndUniqueUsername has obviously gamed the system to get ECP.

  1. Xtools contribution analysis CoolAndUniqueUsername put down 500 edits in July. After acquiring extended-confirmed on July 30th, this editor has switched most of their editing to commenting on talk pages and RfCs near exclusively in the Israel-Palestine conflict area.
  2. July 31st The day after getting ECP, immediately starts editing Netanyahu's page.
  3. October 22 October 22 Attempted to use their EC perms to canvass editors to an RfC on the Jewish Chronicle, saying I thought folks here might be interested, since I see Islamophobia is a top priority.
  4. July 1 Samisawtak's guide for editors in the Tech for Palestine influence operation says From Ivana: This category contains almost 150k articles with small css errors that anyone can fix. If you click on a specific subcategory it tells you exactly what is wrong and how to fix it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:CS1_errors It's pretty clear that CoolAndUniqueUsername was following this guide given that most of their contributions to boost edit count involved fixing cs1 errors.
@Barkeep49: The issue isn't socking, they're likely different people. The issue is there's an influence campaign offwiki run by Tech4Palestine. We know a member of that campaign has given guidance to that campaign to fix CS1 errors as a way to boost edit counts. CoolAndUniqueUsername shows up a month after this guidance and starts fixing a lot of CS1 errors. Then, 6 days after getting EC, adds onto the exact same section as Smallangryplanet on No Tech For Apartheid,[168] backing up a move review as an "uninvolved editor" on Gaza genocide for Smallangryplanet,[169] !votes on another requested move for SmallAngryPlanet, [170] and that's just within 7 days of getting EC.
@ScottishFinnishRadish: You're right. I would like to withdraw this request in favour of the massive WP:ARCA thread that'll potentially result in a new case. The more I start looking the more I realize I can't fit what I want to say into this thread. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More info at WP:ARCA: [171]
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

They're clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Building up an account with hundreds of minor fixes in article space to get EC, then immediately quitting once hitting the EC boundary is very suspicious. It's more indicative of a person trying to farm edits on an account for the sole purpose of influencing discussions/content on-wiki.

The strategy of making several edits to fix CS1 errors then switching to POV-pushing is the MO of the "Tech for Palestine" Discord/influence operation so this is the biggest giveaway.

Fixing CS1 errors isn't the average beginner task. I think this user is part of an offsite influence campaign that uses EC accounts to swing discussions.
@Butterscotch Beluga: Thank you, I forgot them. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[172]

Discussion concerning CoolAndUniqueUsername

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by CoolAndUniqueUsername

Statement by Selfstudier

Gaming ECR is not to be condoned, pretty sure that fixing maintenance categories is engaged in by more than a few, here's a recent example, the question arises whether there is actual evidence of reported editor being instructed by T4P (for ease of writing) rather than it being pretty clear.Selfstudier (talk) 15:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A report of ECR gaming is now something else altogether? Are we going to run in parallel, a discussion at a potential ARCA and another here? Almost sure that's not the right thing to be doing. Selfstudier (talk) 23:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ïvana

Apparently I need to comment here since months ago I shared a category with CS1 errors so that means anyone fixing them is my pawn. I'll just link to what I have already said in ARCA here. Thanks. - Ïvana (talk) 22:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (Butterscotch Beluga)

I went and notified Smallangryplanet at their talk page as they are currently being accused of tag-teaming & participation in an off-site campaign - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Smallangryplanet

Hey, I'm not sure why I've been pinged here. As far as I can tell it just looks like CoolAndUniqueUsername and I have similar interests, we've interacted on a talk page maybe once or twice? But again, it is not against wikipedia policy to be interested in the same things as other editors. This feels like WP:ASPERSIONS because of a coincidence, rather than a serious accusation. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning CoolAndUniqueUsername

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • For me, this is firmly in the grey area of gaming and the offense is a few months old at this point. There were a lot of different small edits, de-orphaning, adding to lists, cs1, as well as some more substantial edits. Some of the maintenance work has continued after they gained EC, but since September almost all of their edits have been ARBPIA related. It's a real noodle cooker. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Chess, I think this user is part of an offsite influence campaign that uses EC accounts to swing discussions You'll need the regular Arbitration committee for that. AE tastes great, and has fewer calories, but it's not quite the same as the real thing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • EC-gaming is evident. The normal response would be to pull the EC flag, which I would support doing in this case. Absent other evidence of the substance of their edits being a problem, however, I don't see a justification for other sanctions. I also found their early edits suspicious enough to run a check, but I found nothing suspicious. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For me this is more ECR box checking. Their intent is clearly to get ECR but the edits they did were of benefit to the encyclopedia; for me ECR gaming is doing things like clearly doing something in multiple edits which could have been a single edit or making and undoing your own work or messing around in userspace. I am also unsure how, if we pulled ECR, they would qualify to regain it. In my mind we said "here are the rules to be able to edit in this topic area" we have an editor clearly motivated to do that and they followed the rules, and for me they also mostly followed the intent of the rules. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The things that concern me are the string of CS1 fixes within days of registering an account, and the link additions that I think are quite likely bot/LLM assisted (see this, for instance). I have yet to find a clear-cut example of a violation of something more serious than OVERLINK, so perhaps you're right that the intent of the rules has not been broken. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In my several trips to AN related to EC gaming I saw a rough consensus that rushing to make minor edits and fixes, even if constructive, in an obvious effort to gain EC is seen as gaming. There's a lot of grey area, however. I looked at this editor in the past, but with the mix of CS1, linking, and some more substantial edits, as well as some questions, and a new article led me to let it slide at the time as not completely obvious gaming. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I ran a CU on this user even before Chess' most recent comment and found no technical evidence of any socking. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm willing to be persuaded that this is just the right side of the line. I have spotchecked other contribs and found no issues. Page overlap in and of itself tells us nothing - at the moment I would expect every ARBPIA editor to have interacted on a core set of pages. If there is private evidence of canvassing or other off-wiki coordination it needs to go to ARBCOM, nothing I have seen here is sufficient for sanctions. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said, I looked into this before and declined to act. There's no firm consensus among the community of where the line is, and this is far enough in the grey area, and months past the time for some action. Arbcom has Chess' statement, so I don't think there's anything for us to do here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I was the only one inclined to do anything here, I'm going to close with no action taken. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Snowstormfigorion

Appeal declined. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user : Snowstormfigorion (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Snowstormfigorion (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed
6 month topic-ban from the Arab-Isreal conflict, broadly construed
Administrator imposing the sanction
Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Notification of that administrator
Diff

Statement by Snowstormfigorion

The ban concerns two edits (first and second), as well as what the imposing-admin states to be re-inserting of content where verifiability is in dispute without engaging in discussion in the talk page; see here.

As I have explained to the admin, I did not participate much in the discussion as I truly had no strong preference for either of the options listed. And regarding the verification concerns, I was genuinely under the belief that the verification issue was a matter of debate between the two sides, rather than an established fact; had I known the latter, I would not have made the two edits restoring the original phrasing and removing the verification tags. The admin also mentions that I responded to being told I was inserting misinformation and that the tags were not removed by an editor, Andrevan, making the same reverts as I was. As with the former, I truthfully believed that the issue was a topic of discussion, and thus, that what I was told was a side of that discussion and that Andre was misled in this case; clearly, I was.

I understand the significance of administrators' role in ensuring a healthy environment for all users, and I very much respect your decisions. I have been on Wikipedia for just over a year, and have certainly made my share of mistakes, as shown on my talk page. I have only really started editing contentious topic articles this September, with all the regulations and protocols that apply to them being newfound to me and frankly somewhat intimidating. It was, wholeheartedly, never my intention to create conflict or undermine the efforts of others, I was simply trying to contribute to the topic based on my understanding at the time.

To that end, I have already taken the initiative to familiarize myself with the relevant policies and guidelines and best practices to avoid similar issues in the future, and, in the event that I do not adhere to the former, will be ready to accept any measure administrators deem necessary. I genuinely value the opportunity to participate, improve, and constructively contribute to the site, therefore, I ask for a last and final chance to demonstrate that I can be a positive member of the community.

@Valereee: As mentioned above, this is all new to me. I had never encountered this page before being pinged, and it all seemed, overwhelming. And as I was, falsely, under the impression that the two reverts I made did not violate any procedures, I did not comment nor make a statement. In hindsight, I realize I should have. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 00:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde93

I stand by this sanction. Snowstormfigorion was told "you are inserting false information", and responded to that claim, yet chose to both revert in the content where verifiability was in dispute and subsequently reverted even a failed verification tag. All of this was on a page they'd previously been blocked from for edit-warring, so this was a second offence. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Snowstormfigorion

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Snowstormfigorion

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • Snowstormfigorion, a topic ban from a single CTOP, even one this broad, is still an opportunity to show that you can be a positive contributor. Stay far, far away from Arab/Israel conflict and go edit in other places. I'd recommend -- for anyone -- that you just avoid all CTOPs in general until you understand the policy surrounding them better, as CTOPs are a terrible place to learn on the job.
It's unfortunate that the general area seems to be your primary area of interest, but I see that you've edited in/around regional food and music; many culture articles are not anywhere near the conflict; that's something you could discuss with Vanamonde on your talk page (and nowhere else, and with no one other than an admin). You can also edit on Simple English Wikipedia, which would ensure you didn't inadvertently violate the tban by getting too close to it and would show you can edit near the area without being disruptive.
I'm a decline, but no objection to another appeal after three months of active non-problematic editing. Valereee (talk) 13:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iskandar323

No action, broader case currently before Arbcom. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Iskandar323

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Iskandar323 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Iskandar has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC.

Requested Moves

Iskandar takes differing positions on whether to refer to an event as a massacre depending on who the victims are; they consistently support using the word when the victims are Palestinian, and oppose its use when they are Israeli.

The double standard can be seen in their justifications for these moves; at Engineer's Building airstrike they argue that "massacre" should be used as a descriptive title - in other words, using independent reasoning. At Attack on Holit, however, they argue that the title should reflect the sources, and that independent reasoning should not be used to support "massacre".

While individually these !votes can be justified, collectively they demonstrate a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Language in articles

Iskandar uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV.

The double standard is very evident in some of these edits. For example, at Anti-Palestinianism during the Israel–Hamas war they corrected a MOS:CLAIM issue in relation to a Palestinian POV, explaining statement is already attributed: it doesn't need to be double-couched with a "claimed" - also per MOS:CLAIM.

Three weeks later, at Al-Shifa ambulance airstrike, they took a statement by the IDF which was already attributed with "said" and "double-couched with a 'claimed'"; the only explanation here was ce.

In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.


Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 25 September 2021 - Topic banned for one year
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
  • Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@Ealdgyth: The scope of that case request is limited to activities including an off-wiki component, which is why I didn’t include these originally - and unless ArbCom decides on a different scope, these probably don’t fit in there. BilledMammal (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: The massacre data is before ArbCom; the word use analysis is not. To respond to your request about whether the disparity in language use exists in the sources, it does not. Reviewing some of the examples, I find the following where Iskandar deviates from sources. They include presenting positions aligned with a pro-Palestinian POV as statements when sources present them as claims, and presenting positions aligned with a pro-Israeli POV as claims when sources present them as a statements or even facts:

BilledMammal (talk) 01:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Vanamonde93: The issue I'm trying to highlight here is that Iskandar uses "claim" when sources use "said", and "said" when sources use "claim", but only when doing so advances their POV. In my view, this is not an equivalent language disparity in the sources, and thus Iskandar is engaging in POV pushing.
    For example, in the first they present the doctors quote as a statement (which is what I meant by "statement"), but Iskandar presents it as a claim. For the second, third, and fourth, if we take MOS:CLAIM as a the baseline, to be deviated from only when justified by sources, then Iskandar should have used "said".
    For the fifth, it does present it as "says" in the headline, but WP:HEADLINE applies, and even if it didn't it doesn't justify the use of "claim".
    It's not that they're not edits a pro-Israeli editor would make; it's that they're not edits that a neutral editor would make - and if we tolerate such edits, particularly at the scale that editors like Iskandar contributes on, then we allow our articles to be distorted away from neutrality and towards a partisan perspective. BilledMammal (talk) 02:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Zero0000: It's about the deportation of Jews from what is now Israel/Palestine. Given that there is considerable debate about who the "real" native people of the region is, I think it is appropriately classified. As for attribution of IDF/Israeli statements - yes, it was appropriate to attribute them. The issue is that Iskandar chose to do so against MOS:CLAIM and use claim - and if such edits are neutral, why are there so few instances of them attributing Hamas/Palestinian statements with "claim"? BilledMammal (talk) 03:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Zero0000: We're getting off topic, but whether the Jews voluntarily left or were forced to leave is relevant to perceptions of the Jewish Right of Return, as well as to perceptions of other historical events such as the Nakba, which is why downplaying that deportation is relevant to the topic area. It is also relevant that the sources describe the deportation as a fact, not a claim, meaning that Iskandar has once again misrepresented sources. BilledMammal (talk) 02:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Vanamonde93: Given your comment about the CAE report, was what you needed evidence like this?:
    1. Robert Jenrick - 19:29, 4 September 2024
      Added that a students visa was revoked after she made a speech defending the Palestinian right to resistance. The source doesn't say "right to resistance", and instead describes her defending the October 7 attacks, saying "We are really, really full of joy of what happened". Also described the revocation as "arbitrary" in Wikivoice, when the source attributes it.
BilledMammal (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanamonde93: I see that as summarizing the words, because her visa wasn't revoked for speaking at the event - it was revoked for the words she used. Regardless, there are many more examples, but I'm already well over the word limit so I will only present a couple of them:
  1. Falafel - 09:22, 10 August 2024
    Adds The adoption of the Palestinian chickpea version of the falafel into Israeli cuisine and its identification as Israeli is contentious, and has led to accusations of cultural appropriation. The source does not support this claim in any way; it doesn't say who created the falafel, and the closest is saying that Israeli food is mostly Mizrahi Jewish, North African, Balkan, Arab, Turkish and Palestinian food.
  2. Anti-Defamation League 15:14, 4 August 2024
    Added Domestically and internationally, the ADL engages in advocacy for Israel by working to counter messaging critical of the illegal Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. The source describes it as an "occupation", not an "illegal occupation".
  3. Israeli Air Force - 13:58, 24 August 2024
    Adds In August 2024, a commander of the 200th brigade, which operates the IAF's fleet of drones, told +972 magazine that his unit had killed 6,000 people since the start of the war without distinguishing between armed combatants and unarmed individuals. The source doesn't support the claim "without distinguishing"; the closest it comes is when, the commander explained that for a specific airstrike they distinguished between civilians and militants by assuming that those who didn't flee when the fighting started were militants - problematic in itself, but not what Iskandar claimed.
BilledMammal (talk) 07:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

04:31, 6 November 2024

Discussion concerning Iskandar323

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Iskandar323

Statement by xDanielx

@Ealdgyth: could you explain what you mean by isn't actually against policy? BM linked to the relevant UCoC policy. I'm not aware of any cases where this board has sanctioned POV pushing, but I thought it was theoretically possible; Red-tailed hawk also seemed to agree. Are you saying that there isn't enough evidence of a violation?

I'm not commenting on the merits of this particular case, but the general approach of demonstrating a pattern of inconsistencies seems sound. There will never be incontrovertible proof of POV pushing, at least of the more covert type that experienced editors might engage in. Isolated instances of source misrepresentation could also be simple mistakes. I think the question is whether there's sufficient evidence of a pattern. — xDanielx T/C\R 16:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

BilledMammal put his "massacre" statistics before ArbCom more than two months ago and they are still there. Why is it permitted to introduce them again here?

As to their value, in this RM about a massacre of Israelis Iskandar323 actually proposed two alternative titles which both have "massacre" in them. This isn't in BilledMammal's table, but when I suggested that it would make his table more balanced, BilledMammal refused with an excuse that I consider tendentious. More generally, the table says nothing about what the sources say, and nothing about the occasions when editors declined to intervene in an RM on talk pages they were already active on. BilledMammal in particular has not refuted the claim that changing the titles of several articles on killings of Palestinians was required to correct a glaring NPOV imbalance. Zerotalk 11:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't help noticing that BilledMammal lists this diff about an Assyrian ruler circa 720 BCE as "Advances the Palestinian POV". This is simply ridiculous. I also notice that about 1/3 of the "claim" examples are addition of attribution to assertions made by the Israeli military or government that had been added as facts in wikivoice. Zerotalk 03:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: Thanks for confirming that it wasn't an accident. I'll leave aside the fact that "claim" is entirely appropriate for the boasts of ancient rulers. The relevant point here is that Iskandar323 did not make the connection you claim, not even the slightest hint of it. The connection is only being made by you, according to your own POV. It doesn't even make sense; if Sargon didn't deport the Jews it means they remained in Samaria, which hardly supports the Palestinian POV. Zerotalk 10:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: "downplaying that deportation is relevant to the topic area"—sorry but there is only so much nonsense that I want to reply to. Zerotalk 03:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: Are you going to propose that all ARBPIA reports should go to ArbCom? That's the way it is heading. This is a report about one person and I don't see the slightest reason that AE can't deal with it. Zerotalk 14:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC) To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: No administrator has given an opinion that there is even prima facie evidence of a case to answer. A "nebulous case" isn't a case at all. Vanamonde93 wrote "I looked at your first five links, and they don't hold up to scrutiny". He is right. The closest is that Ealdgyth prefers that BilledMammal add it to an existing case. BilledMammal is on a drive to get his POV-opposites banned and will continue for as long as his nebulous cases are taken seriously. Another point is that Iskandar323 has not edited since several weeks before this case was opened and might not even be aware it exists. Zerotalk 15:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ABHammad

Following this filing I decided to take a look at Iskandar323's recent edits from September (as far back as I had time to check). I clearly see that Iskandar323 is doing edits that can be described as POV pushing.

  • Iskandar323 has removed content from sources (including notable scholars) they decided on their own that are 'unreliable': [173],[174] while I found the user adding content based on sources listed as unreliable by WP:RSN [175], [176] (By the way the citations added by Iskandar323 for some reason mention only the article title but not their source - quite unusual for such a veteran editor).
  • Iskandar323 is repeatedly removing content from articles related to controversial issues leaving them more partisan [177], [178],[179].
  • Iskandar323 added the category "Propaganda in Israel"[180] to the film Bearing Witness (2023 film), about atrocities conducted by Hamas during the October 7 attacks.
  • I've seen examples of massive removals in Jews or Jewish history related articles, some info was sourced, although it is still very extreme to remove so much content especially when the sentences weren't tagged before. Here's one recent example: [181]. This seems to be a practice continued by Iskandar323 for months if not years, and it is especially odd seeing that we have lots of content on extremely notable non-Jewish history topics (History of the Roman Empire) without sources that nobody ever tries to delete.
  • I've only looked at recent edits but there is already a pattern of what can be interpreted as tendentious with goals such as changing the name Judea to Palestine: [182] or making a British politician who supports Israel look bad [183], [184]. I have no idea if it's connected but the Pirate Wires said that the Tech For Palestine group was trying to influence British politicians.
  • Although it may not be connected, Iskandar323 also removed information on human right violations by the Iranian Islamic republic [185].

Most of the edits are not policy violations (though there are cases of gaming of policies used to remove content that doesn't seem to align with the general ideological line promotedf by this editor), but it is consistent with a systematic attempt to strengthen one side. ABHammad (talk) 15:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vice regent

ScottishFinnishRadish, I think both of those diffs are justified.

  • In this edit Iskandar attributed claims of a tunnel underneath Al-Shifa to IDF, as opposed to stating it in wikivoice. I think this is justified as multiple sources had already doubted the veracity of Israeli claims in this matter: Guardian, WaPo (quoted in RollingStone), NBC News.
  • This edit attributes claims to Israel's National Center of Forensic Medicine, instead of stating in wikivoice. This is not that different from attributing deaths in Gaza to the Gaza Ministry of Health, rather than stating it in wikivoice. In fact, the head of that institute was found to have been making false claims[186], so this edit is at least not unreasonable. We probably need a centralized discussion on whether to attribute Israeli forensic claims or state them in wikivoice.

Of course, I agree that instead of using the word "claim" Iskandar should have said "according to" or "stated by" etc.VR (Please ping on reply) 19:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by Huldra

Just a note on one of the diffs: Al-Shifa Hospital siege: ™Says that it is a "claim" that tunnels exist beneath Al-Shifa. The source presents it as a fact.". The problem is that the Israeli source is highly disputed. There is even a wp-article about it: Alleged military use of al-Shifa hospital. Yes, he should have brought other sources, but the reality is that it is a much-disputed claim, Huldra (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Wafflefrites

I don’t think these mos:claim issues are too big a deal. They can easily be fixed by another editor. Iskandar323 does have a tendency to mass remove content, but usually provides a legitimate reason (for example, removing unsourced content). I can’t comment on whether his removal of info based on source unreliability requires additional scrutiny because I am unfamiliar with the sources.

Some of his edits, like mass removals (or replacing a long-standing user generated map, or changing the Star of David black) can be jarring but I think most of the time they are based on legitimate wiki policies. Except changing the Star of David Black. I (and I think other editors) probably assumed he was under a lot of stress and maybe looking at too many graphic images, videos, and news about the war.

Recently, Iskandar323 was heavily involved in a discussion that downgraded the Anti-Defamation League’s reliability ranking on Wikipedia. I do not agree with the extent of the downgrade, especially when there are real cases of current antisemitism . However, he did have a point that the ADL needs improvement. It needs improvement in its methodology and presentation of numbers and in explaining/giving examples of how anti-Zionism can lead to antisemitism, rather than just equating the two and changing definitions. I did see his username being written about in some articles outside of Wikipedia about this ADL thing. Ultimately I think downgrading ADL to the extent that it was downgraded was the wrong move (should have been downgraded to additional considerations in that category), and there is public backlash. So in conclusion, I think Iskandar323 is an editor who mostly is following Wikipedia policies but sometimes his very bold POV can draw anger and may result in situations and outcomes (like the ADL outcome and backlash) that really should have been more moderate.

I also appreciate BilledMammal bringing up his concerns here. Sometimes I don’t think editors take Talk page discussions seriously. And if there is a real issue with editing, editors should try to determine if it is a real issue that is in line with policies. BilledMammal could be wrong or he could be right at times. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Iskandar323

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • As per the request against Nableezy, looking at the presented diffs, I don't see how this is something that can be dealt with at AE. Trying to get sanctions for an editor for something that isn't actually against policy is (at best) something that needs ArbCom. Having an opinion and editing with that opinion isn't something we necessarily sanction - only when that opinion leads to misrepresentation and other misbehavior does AE become involved. MOS enforcement is not something that AE is set up for (which is, in the end, what this boils down to - MOS:CLAIM is a manual of style guideline). Again, much like Nableezy, we don't sanction editors for having and editing in correlation with their own opinions on subjects - unless they start misrepresenting sources or engage in other proscribed behavior - and I'm not seeing that any of the presented information meets that standard. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:57, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Per the UCoC enforcement guidelines - 3.1.2 "UCoC violations that happen on a single wiki: Handled by existing enforcement structures according to their existing guidelines, where they do not conflict with these guidelines" - AE is not equipped to handle this sort of complex investigation - make the case at ArbCom. Given that AE is generally limited to 500 words and 20 diffs (even if there is the ability to go beyond if needed), I cannot see how even with quadrupled word and diff allowances AE could possibly begin to investigate such a nebulous thing as is alleged here. Ealdgyth (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      The real question is: do we open a new ARCA filing for each of these reports, roll all three into one, or dump it all in the 2.3 tomats and almost three month old discussion that's still sitting there? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Personally, can I choose option Z - return to my blanket fort and ignore the world? Barring that option, I would prefer that BM piled these into his case request he just filed (considering that one of the three editors that BM filed an AE request on is also listed in the ArbCom request... I think that's probably the best idea). Ealdgyth (talk) 18:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not necessarily saying "we admins refer this to ArbCom", I'm saying that I do not see anything here that AE can deal with, without going greatly over the word and diff counts and getting deeper into the situation than AE is designed to do. If the filing party here decides that they want to take their much-too-long evidence to ArbCom, that's on them. I didn't see enough in the diffs to say "this is bad editing and we need to sanction it at AE". It very well may be possible to prove the case with greater evidence limits, but we function here at AE with somewhat limited evidence limits. I do not see that we can say that not adhering to MOS:CLAIM occasionally is a sanctionable offense. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I've stated elsewhere, I'm unwilling to use language comparisons in isolation; I would consider such disparity in language use an NPOV violation iff there is not an equivalent disparity in the sources. As to the rest, I'm also not willing to consider evidence that is simultaneously before ARBCOM. BilledMammal, can you please clarify which pieces of this filing do not concern evidence you have already presented there? Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    BM, I looked at your first five links, and they don't hold up to scrutiny. The first is a quote from a doctor, not the source stating something in its own voice. Iskandar's stated reasons for the second are that it was a liveblog source, not that the source wasn't reporting something in its own voice. I don't see the difference between what Iskandar did and what you are saying should be done in the third instance, or the fourth. And in the fifth, the source goes back and forth between attributing the claim and not; Iskandar isn't creating a claim out of thin air. These may be examples of editing with a POV, in the sense that a person with a pro-Israeli POV is unlikely to make them; but per Ealdgyth, that isn't forbidden. What's forbidden is violating NPOV with specific edits, and I will need to see stronger evidence of that to suggest taking action. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    BM: Yes, that's the sort of thing I take seriously, but on the face of it the summary appears to be of "speaking at a university demonstration on Gaza’s historical resistance to Israel’s “oppressive regime”" and not of her actual words; if they were a summary of her actual words, I would agree that that is very concerning. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Are we fine just closing this as also referred to Arbcom? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Zero0000, this is another report with ~40 diffs and links to 15 full discussions, with feedback from admins like I'm unwilling to use language comparisons in isolation then saying it needs a source analysis, and another admin saying I cannot see how even with quadrupled word and diff allowances AE could possibly begin to investigate such a nebulous thing as is alleged here. Neither of those admins is me. So yes, I will continue to support referring AE requests that clearly exceed the capacity of AE to Arbcom, especially as there is likely a case in the pipeline. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure we should refer this one to ArbCom - is any uninvolved admin convinced there is a reasonable chance of wrong doing in the evidence? If so and it's beyond our ability at AE to prove it, great let's refer. If not, I don't htink we should refer. If ArbCom opens a case BM could then represent this (presuming it's with-in the scope and they have the word/diff limits to do so). Speaking only for myself and not for anyone else, I am also not a fan of people asking us to enforce the UCoC. According to the policy, This Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) defines a minimum set of guidelines of expected and unacceptable behaviour. It is my contention, as well as established ArbCom principle, that our policies and guidelines at least meet this minimum and in most cases and definitely around content misbehavior that turns into conduct misbehavior, such as POV pushing, goes beyond that minimum. As such I think enwiki editors should be using enwiki policy when asking for enforcement. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess what I was getting at was close this as in Arbcom's hands. Half of the evidence is before them already, and this looks to be going to a case. This edit definitely does add claim language that is not found in the source. This edit adds claim language that is not found in the source. Is that enough to show a pattern? There are ~40 more diffs to check to analyze and weigh to come to that decision. There's already a case, so whether it is referred to arbcom, closed as already before arbcom, or closed as moot due to an upcoming case that is better equipped to analyze this, I think the end result is effectively the same. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am fine closing this as "In Arbcom's hands". Barkeep49 (talk) 17:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ealdgyth, Vanamonde93, any objections to that closure? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess I don't see a material difference between that and "no action", since we cannot in any way prevent a user from going to ARBCOM, and much of the evidence is there already. SFR, I don't think those instances are in any way clear-cut enough to merit sanction. This isn't uniformly the case across BM's reports; I was going to propose sanctions on CarmenEsparzaAmoux below before that was rendered moot. I certainly don't believe we should be telling ARBCOM to deal with this specific report. But I don't care especially about the wording used to close it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CarmenEsparzaAmoux

Closed as moot Valereee (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

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Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

CarmenEsparzaAmoux has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC.

Source misrepresentation

CarmenEsparzaAmoux has repeatedly misrepresented sources, in a way that advances a Palestinian POV. This includes making claims not supported by the source, making claims in Wikivoice that the source attributes, and including only the Palestinian POV even when the source they use prominently includes the Israeli POV.

The following is a small sample of these edits; if helpful I can provide many more, although please be aware I only reviewed a small sample of their edits and there will be many I overlooked:

  1. 05:16, 6 October 2024
    Source says that Israel will place "Hamas militants who remain in the area under siege"; CEA misrepresents this as place anyone remaining there ... under a complete siege.
  2. 02:01, 23 September 2024
    CAE says Netenyahu considering ordering siege tactics against Gaza City. Source says "examining a plan to use siege tactics against Hamas in northern Gaza". Also a BLP violation.
  3. 05:01, 17 September 2024
    CAE says that an Israeli sniper killed a UN employee in the West Bank. They neglect to mention the Israeli position, covered prominently in the source, which is that the man had been throwing explosive devices at Israeli soldiers.
  4. 05:13, 13 September 2024
    CAE says Israel killed at least four Anera aid workers. The source doesn't say that they were part of Anera, or that they were aid workers. All it says that they were in an Anera vehicle, and that according to Anera the men "had not been vetted in advance", and their presence "was not co-ordinated with the IDF", but that they "had stepped in to take over the lead vehicle". Further, CAE neglects to mention the Israeli position, that the men were armed assailents who seized control of the vehicle.
  5. 05:26, 12 September 2024
    CAE says that Israel has killed 207 UNRWA staff; the source doesn't say who is responsible, with the closest it comes being "mainly due to Israeli air attacks". While it may seem reasonable to assume that Israel killed all of them, we are not permitted to go beyond sources in this manner, and it neglects the fact that there have been incidents of friendly fire.
  6. 21:29, 17 August 2024
    CAE puts the death toll of an airstrike in Wikivoice. The source attributes it.
  7. 00:52, 18 August 2024
    CAE says that Israel ordered the evacuations of districts in Beit Hanoun and Beit Lahiya. Omits the fact, prominently presented in the source, that this was ordered due to rocket fire from those districts.
  8. 00:59, 15 June 2024
    CAE said that journalists were arrested due to being attacked by far-right Israelis. The source says that a single photographer was attacked by far-right Israelis, who was later arrested. The photographer claims that a right-wing operative contacted the police and claimed he was a Hamas operative; the Israeli police claimed he had recently been banned from the Temple Mount. Either way, the source does not at any point suggest his arrest was related to him being attacked, and the final paragraph includes an explicit statement from the Israeli police denying that claim.
  9. 20:03, 11 June 2024
    The source says that both the IDF, Hamas, and the PIJ were added to a "list of offenders who fail to protect children". On an article about Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict CAE only added that the IDF were.
  10. 23:34, 10 June 2024
    CAE said, in Wikivoice, that 33 members of Palestine Red Crescent Society had been killed since the war begun. The source attributed this claim.

This issue has been raised with them previously, but it was not rectified.

Language in articles

CarmenEsparzaAmoux uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV.

This double standard can be seen in edits like this one, where in regards to competing positions they say that Hamas "states" while Israel "claims". It can also be seen in the differing ways they treat sources based on whether the content aligns with their POV; in this edit, they change the appropriately-attributed "New York Times reported" to the "New York Times claimed", while in this edit Al Jazeera "states" while Israel "claims".

In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 15 October 2023 (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@Liz: The only connection between the two reports is the editor - the evidence presented and the activities I'm asking to be reviewed are unrelated. BilledMammal (talk) 11:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

04:30, 6 November 2024

Discussion concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by CarmenEsparzaAmoux

I am not here to "advance a specific POV." I am here to help build an encyclopedia. I do add statements by the Israeli government regarding their explanations for specific actions [187], [188]. In the last year, I have worked with a high volume of information and editing in this topic area, and I am sure I have made mistakes. BM has raised these concerns in the past, and I have tried my absolute best to improve my editing. I know I'm not perfect, but I'm not here to "systematically manipulate" anything. I take full responsibility for any edits that do not perfectly match the source or improperly use the word claim, but I categorically reject the notion that I'm here to push a POV or "manipulate" content. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 21:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by FortunateSons

Please note that the reported party has been blocked following a CU. I believe that this report can now be closed. FortunateSons (talk) 17:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Just noting that their is a current arbitration case request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area involving these same two editors. I know Arbitration and AE are two separate forums but I want to make sure there isn't "double jeopardy" or the same claims being made in two different noticeboards. Liz Read! Talk! 08:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Nableezy

Rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that the Arbitraiton Comittee is better able to determine what, if anything, the problems are and any appropriate sanction. Will be referring it to them at WP:ARCA. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nableezy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Nableezy has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC.

Requested Moves

Nableezy takes differing positions on whether to refer to an event as a massacre depending on who the victims are; they consistently support using the word when the victims are Palestinian, and oppose its use when they are Israeli.

They support this by applying double standards. For example, at Attack on Holit, they argue that massacre shouldn't be used because "attack" is more common in reliable sources. At Engineer's Building airstrike they argue that we shouldn't follow WP:COMMONNAME but should use a descriptive title, with them arguing that "massacre" is that descriptive title.

While individually these !votes can be justified, collectively they demonstrate a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Language in articles

Nableezy uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV.

While less blatant than the behavior of CAE or Iskandar, this manipulation is still clear. For example, at List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, they changed B'tselem claims that 2,038 were civilians to According to the Israeli human rights organization B'tselem, 2,038 were civilians, correctly citing MOS:CLAIM.

Three weeks later, at Al-Shifa Hospital they Attribute to israel by adding "claim", and at Gaza Strip they add Israel has claimed that the blockade is necessary to protect itself from Palestinian political violence.

One week later, at Ahed Tamimi, they are back to correcting MOS:CLAIM violations by changing Her lawyer claimed that she was beaten during her arrest to her lawyer said she was beaten during her arrest.

In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 26 December 2023 - Topic banned for 30 days for battleground editing
  2. 12 October 2021 - Cautioned to moderate their tone
  3. 19 March 2021 - Warned to moderate their tone
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
  • Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

That source was published on November 14; ten days before your edit, and three days before the tunnel was discovered. The source used for the statement was published two days before your edit, and says in its own voice that the tunnels exist and that they have visited them.

However, the issue isn't the specific edits - the issue is the pattern, which demonstrates you apply different standards to claims aligned with the Israeli POV than you do claims aligned with the Palestinian. BilledMammal (talk) 05:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: For the most part, an experienced editor intending to POV push won't behave in that way; they'll be more subtle. The exception is "generally distorting our content relative to the body of published literature on a subject", but unfortunately that is almost impossible to prove as it becomes a content dispute.
Instead, what I am trying to demonstrate here is selective application of policies. Nableezy does that when they argue we should use "massacre" as a descriptive title when the victims are Palestinians, but that we should match the language used in sources when the victims are Israeli. Similarly, they do that when they strictly apply MOS:CLAIM to the Palestinian POV, but frequently diverge from it - even when the relevant sources makes the statement in their own voice - when it comes to the Israeli POV. BilledMammal (talk) 05:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93 and Seraphimblade: Looking at the specific edits of the claim review, I believe there is evidence of the sort you ask for. In addition to the previously discussed Al-Shifa Hospital example, where they use "claim" to attribute a statement to Israel when the source put the statement in their own voice, we have:

  • Israel–Hamas war - 2023-12-12T15:11:57Z
    Nableezy adds "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse". The source says "Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence during the attack — despite the evidence."
    In this edit, they represent the allegations as a "claim", despite the source being very clear that it is skeptical of Hamas' claim, not Israel's.
  • Israel–Hamas war - 2023-12-10T17:34:12Z
    Nableezy adds The New York Times reported that the claim of Hamas fighters surrendering was made after video and photographs of "men stripped to their underwear, sitting or kneeling on the ground, with some bound and blindfolded" were seen on social media.
    The source says The Israeli military said on Thursday that it had apprehended hundreds of people suspected of terrorism, adding The New York Times has not verified the images or the video.
    In this edit, Nableezy presents the Israeli position with less credulity than the source, and at the same time presents the videos with more credulity.
  • Gaza Strip - 2023-11-28T19:36:21Z
    Nableezy adds "Israel has claimed that the blockade is necessary to protect itself...", while the source says "The government said the purpose of the new regulations..."
    Again, they present the Israeli position with less credulity than the source.

(Note that I could continue - including with edits outside the narrow scope of MOS:CLAIM, but I'm already approaching the word limit and so would need a word extension)

In contrast, when Palestinian claims are discussed, they consistently reflect the language of the sources. I believe this demonstrates them misrepresenting sources, and distorting content to advance a particular POV - is this the sort of evidence you require? BilledMammal (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nableezy: The issue there is that your wording doesn’t reflect the incredulity that the source treats Hamas’ claims with. However, if you wish, we can focus on the other examples - "said" is not a synonym for "claim". BilledMammal (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ealdgyth: It is possible to argue that they are reasonable paraphrases - which is why I structured the evidence this way, because if they are a reasonable paraphrases and Nableezy is not POV-pushing, why do they never paraphrase Palestinian claims in that way?
There is an particularly insidious type of POV pushing, where individual edits can be justified (although the Al-Shifa hospital edit cannot, as you can't take a statement the source presents as fact and instead present it as a third parties claim), but when we look at the broader picture we see that an editor is consistently trying to push a particular POV by applying different standards and sourcing expectations. This is far harder to address than more blatant forms, and as a consequence far more damaging to the encyclopedia in the long run.
However, I understand that it can be difficult to act on this sort of evidence, so instead it it possible to get a word extension, so that I can present evidence across a wider scope that can better meet what Vanamonde93 is asking for? BilledMammal (talk) 13:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

04:30, 6 November 2024

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nableezy

I can’t seriously believe I’m going to explain edits from 2023, but MOS:CLAIM isn’t a prohibition on using the word. Sources, such as the Associated Press, said of the Israeli claims that Shifa is Gaza’s largest and best-equipped hospital. Israel, without providing visual evidence, claims the facility also is used by Hamas for military purposes. Changing a sentence of Wikipedia using its own voice to present an unsupported claim by a combatant that sources have repeatedly said was lacking any evidence as fact and correctly saying that it was an Israeli claim is showing caution to only use the word where appropriate. The idea that Btselem was claiming something that no source has questioned is the equivalent of that is what is actually POV pushing. Given the low quality of the evidence here, if there is some specific diff that admins think I need to answer for, even if it’s from a year ago, let me know. But I’d advice them not to simply accept BilledMammals *claims* as they likewise fail even the slightest scrutiny. As far as move requests, I saw lots of requests for massacres in Israel that I saw no need to oppose calling massacre. I got involved in the ones I thought were an issue. But again, if there is something in this mishmash of diffs going back a year I should pay attention to please let me know. nableezy - 04:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except for the fact that Btselem is Israeli lol. I don’t apply different standards based on whose claim it is, I apply different standards based on how credible the claim is according to reliable sources. I don’t intend to get into a back and forth with BM here, I think his evidence is tendentious and dishonestly presented (for example my support of massacre for the attack on the engineers building was based on the same argument being used for an attack on Israeli civilians being moved to massacre, but that’s glossed over as supports for Palestinians and opposes for Israelis, and my not participating in ones about Israeli victims that I did not object to is also treated as though it consistently opposes for Israeli victims). So, to cut off any extended dialogue here, if an admin thinks there is anything in here I should respond to please let me know. nableezy - 05:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BilledMammal, changing your comment after it’s been replied to is generally considered a no-no. nableezy - 05:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Synonyms for claim: allegation. If BilledMammals position is I used the wrong synonym for what a source called allegations I don’t know how this is not a tendentious report. nableezy - 12:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it is not a synonym, your example is just dishonestly presented. I reverted to a prior version there (search for "Israel has claimed" here) and made some additional edits. That I did not correct every issue in that prior version while reverting due to other issues may be a minor issue, but your claim that this is something I initially inserted is just made up. As Zero says below, the edit in Israel-Hamas war, several organizations immediately cast doubt on the claim by Israel, saying that what Israel said were "terrorists" were in fact civilians. Claim was appropriate there. Im not sure AE is the place to litigate content disputes from a year ago, but most of this evidence is distorted in similar ways as the first example here. (Oh, you still havent reverted your material modification of a comment already replied to). nableezy - 12:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as the lol, at the time BilledMammal said I use different language for Israeli claims than Palestinian ones, and he presented me removing claim from an Israeli organization as proof of that. That literally made me laugh. I am not really sure how you all think an lol is rude but sure I won’t laugh again on Wikipedia. nableezy - 14:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But you can address it here, because these claims are either non issues or dishonestly presented. Even ignoring they are a year old. nableezy - 14:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes SFR, after other discussions were closed on the basis of massacre being an appropriate description without looking at the usage in sources for killings of Israelis I argued the same standard should be followed for the killings of Palestinians. You seem to think that arguing that we should be following a consistent standard, after other articles have set that standard, is inconsistent. For the Flour massacre article, when reliable sources flat out say something is a common name then that is the evidence needed for it to be a common name. The substantive part of my argument about the Engineer's building move was as you quoted, The idea that only when Israeli civilians are indiscriminately targeted and killed is what is a massacre is what is "far too POV". When we have articles that base their name being massacre on the number of Israeli civilians indiscriminately killed and I argue that if this is the case then it should also be the case for the killing of Palestinian civilians indiscriminately that is not taking an inconsistent position. An if then statement is one in which the the then depends on the if. I am not opposed to following any consistent standard for these articles, what I object to is the set up in which Israeli civilians are "massacred" and Palestinian civilians "die in an airstrike" independent of the sourcing. Yes, I referenced an RM that ignored the sources entirely to move an article to a title that contained massacre based on the number of (Israeli) civilians killed that when an exponentially higher number of (Palestinian) civilians are killed the same logic should hold. That isnt inconsistency, that is asking for systemic bias to be addressed. nableezy - 16:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And oh by the way, this move request has me suggesting a move target that did not contain massacre and was accepted by all. This is my criticizing the systemic bias in language Wikipedia uses in this conflict, Israelis are "murdered" or "massacred", but Palestinians are "killed" or "die in an incident" This is my asking for a consistent standard for all these articles. This is my saying that for this article reliable sources have already said that it is a common name. This is my saying that if we are following the standard of the Engineer's building airstrike then that same standard should be applied there. This is my saying I do not mind the change from massacre for the killings of Palestinians and what I objected to was not including the target of the attack, but that is dishonestly portrayed as my supporting massacre there. Over and over again the evidence you uncritically cite is bogus and falls under the weight of even the tiniest amount of scrutiny. My asking that the same arguments be applied evenly is not "inconsistent positions", and it is absurd to claim that my asking that the same standards be followed is POV-pushing. nableezy - 16:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No SFR, my argument is that personal opinions on what makes massacre an appropriate title was already being used for the killings of Israeli civilians. And if that is the case the same should apply to the killings of Palestinian civilians. And no, my objection at Al-Awda school attack was specific about it being an attack on a school, I made no comment on massacre at all in my vote there. I disagreed with the proposed title, so that means I must support it being at massacre? That is a simple logic fail, made obvious by my agreeing that a move from massacre was fine with me. BilledMammal suggested a name that concealed that a school was targeted and that was what I opposed, full stop. But Im not sure if you are playing the role of prosecutor or judge here, and as has often been the case in discussions between you and me this feels more like you throwing whatever you think will stick against a wall against me as has happened in the past. I dont find your characterization of my arguments to be in any way reflective of what they actually were, my position is there should be a single standard applied for both sets. Not the one that exists in which Israelis are murdered or massacred and Palestinians passively die in a strike on some random street. nableezy - 18:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually SFR from what I can tell all the admins have said this evidence is unconvincing and until you suggested punting to AC nobody had said any of the diffs brought were actionable. BM is totally capable of taking whatever he wants to the committee, but this complaint seemed to be being dealt with fine until you suggested taking it there. nableezy - 13:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ABHammad's distortion of what happened at Samir Kuntar should honestly result in a boomerang. Taking a decision made by the US and Canada *after* I said that it was a registered charity in Canada to attempt to claim I was wrong when what I said when I said it was completely accurate is intentionally misleading. As far as EI, that is a. a BLPCRIME issue, and b. an OR issue. It is also something I raised on the talk page, a discussion that the two editors who put in this material have completely ignored, and that includes ABHammad. As far as JNS, I saw a completely unexplained deletion and reverted it. Seriously, can you all deal with the editors who so readily make things up on this board? Please? nableezy - 15:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

This has to be one of the weakest reports here for quite a while.

In the third example of BM's "claim" list, Nableezy added a sentence "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse." which BM classified as "Added 'claim' to content related to an Israeli POV (Advances the Palestinian POV)". Note that Nableezy added the sentence immediately after a sentence noting allegations of sexual abuse by Hamas, with no mention that the allegations were denied. Turning to Nableezy's CNN source we read "Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence". So Nableezy's hanging offence was to balance the POV with a close paraphrase of how the source balanced it.

In the next example, which includes "claim of Hamas fighters surrendering..." using "claim" rather than stating the surrendering as fact is in conformity with the NYT source, which explicitly says that it could not verify the account. Note also that Nableezy gave two additional sources that directly challenge the truth of the account. So this is a perfectly good (and, more importantly, accurate) use of "claim". Zerotalk 11:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's as far as I plan to look, but I propose that these are representative examples of this "evidence".

There's no secret that every regular editor in the ARBPIA area has a POV. Nableezy and BilledMammal have one, and so do I. A report here should provide some evidence of wrongdoing, not just evidence of a preference for editing certain content. Zerotalk 11:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Alleging" someone did wrong and "claiming" someone did wrong have exactly the same meaning. Moreover, editors have every right to extract the factual content of sources without bringing the opinion content along with it. Even more so when our article already states the opinion in the previous sentence. Zerotalk 13:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: "AE is too small scale to address the depth of allegations of this sort." — What depth are you talking about? This report is just one editor with a strong POV complaining that another editor doesn't share that POV. And BilledMammal's misleading RM statistics are at ARCA already, so why are they here again? Every single regular editor in every single contentious area will be in trouble if you pick their edits apart under a microscope. Zerotalk 11:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NadVolum

My reading of WP:CLAIM is that it should not be used if it is undue. I take that as meaning it should not be used unless there is good reaon for considering what was said was false. On that basis I believe it is quite correct to use the word in statements like 'Al-Jazeera reported that the claims of babies being beheaded and were killed en masse were false' and to remove it from statements like 'B'tselem claims that 2,038 were civilians' when changing to 'According to the Israeli human rights organization B'tselem, 2,038 were civilians'. I see very little to dispute in the changes. I can see a person with an 'Israeli POV' might wish things were different but that doesn't mean they break NPOV. NadVolum (talk) 15:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chess

You seem to think that arguing that we should be following a consistent standard, after other articles have set that standard, is inconsistent. is the correct view. It's sometimes difficult to distinguish that from POV-pushing, but it's made easier by reading the explanations.

In Nableezy's case, BilledMammal's table shows consistent opposition to the term "massacre", then a flip to saying that the term "massacre" is fine after a series of losses. [189] From that point onwards, Nableezy only argues in favour of the term "massacre", until a loss at the Engineer's building RM forced Nableezy to re-evaluate their views. Nableezy uses the term "massacre" consistent with prior consensus but will only actively use that reasoning to benefit Palestinians.

It's unrealistic to expect otherwise because we are volunteers, and we devote our limited time to what we are passionate about. This can create a double standard when something conflicts with unwritten consensus and the closer doesn't recognize that. Oftentimes this happens when actual POV-pushers flood specific articles.

I would call the current system a failure of our existing guidelines. Nableezy, unlike the majority of people in this topic area, actually respects consensus and tries to create objective standards. A better way to utilize Nableezy's experience and credibility would be to collaborate on writing up an Israel-Palestine specific MOS for terms like "massacre" or "claim", and a central discussion board for the conflict. BilledMammal's skill at identifying examples of systemic bias could be more effectively used there.

Because global consensus trumps local consensus, we could ban "massacre" across all articles in the recent war. Then, when an influence campaign tries to POV-push, we can ignore that campaign citing WP:NOTAVOTE. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ABHammad

I've also noticed the same conduct from Nableezy. Sharing here an example I also provided on another Wiki page: When I pointed out that Samidoun is an unreliable source (after another editor used it on the article for Samir Kuntar), writing him that they are a terror organization according to multiple countries, Nableezy responded with, Oh ffs, that a government says some group is a terrorist organization has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is a reliable source for some statement. The IDF is a proscribed terrorist organization in Iran, should we not cite it for anything? [190]. Nableezy also says that It’s just Israel that claims some connection to the PFLP[191] and calls them "a registered charity in Canada", [192] but both Canada and the US call them a terrorist entity, with the US Department of Treaury saying Samidoun is "a sham charity that serves as an international fundraiser for the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)."[193]

On two very odd consecutive edits, Nableezy also removed information on a British counter-terrorism investigation into Asa Winstanley, who is an associate editor of Electronic Intifada and removed that its Executive Director Ali Abunimah said Nasrallah gave his life to liberate Palestine [194]. saying it is undue, but this standard of thinking was not applied by them on Jewish News Syndicate, where Nableezy restored the assertion of the newspaper promoting Islamophobic and anti-Palestinian ideas in Wikipedia voice [195] even though it is not sourced. ABHammad (talk) 15:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

@Valereee: Although I have said previously that content issues cannot entirely be ignored, I agree about the pile of complicated diffs issue. How about making better use of the Wikipedia:Template_index/User talk namespace#Multi-level templates, maybe make a new one for CPUSH, such that in order to bring a case to AE, several such warnings need to have been given (responses mandatory), with diffs (say two or three at a time). Then most of the work will have been done by the time it would get here.Selfstudier (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I have yet to go through the evidence in detail, but I want to note that we achieve NPOV by strictly summarizing what reliable sources say, not by balancing both "sides" of a conflict. As such comparing !votes in different RMs is usually an apples to oranges comparison. What I would find persuasive evidence of POV-pushing includes source misrepresentation; supporting or opposing the use of a given source based on its POV in a particular instance; cherry-picking material from a source; elevating poor sources over ones Wikipedia considers more reliable; and generally distorting our content relative to the body of published literature on a subject. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:35, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not too impressed with the "lol" style rudeness—Nableezy, you might want to give that a rest, whether here or elsewhere. Other than that, I largely agree with Vanamonde; I'd need to see more than somewhat inconsistent positions to support an accusation of sanctionable POV pushing. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Seraph that the rudeness is offputting, Nableezy, but otherwise, I don't see that we can actually act on this. The second and third diffs are mostly reasonable paraphrases, if perhaps a bit less than what might be the "perfect" paraphrase - but that isn't ever really possible. The first is slightly more "worrisome" because it could be argued that the CNN source seems to come down on the side of saying that there is evidence of sexual abuse, but the source does not come out and baldly state that sexual abuse happened (they dance around it without outright coming out and saying it did happen) so the most that could be said is that perhaps a better paraphrase would have been "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse despite mounting evidence" or "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse despite mounting news reports that lend credence to the reports of abuse" or similar. But merely leaving out something is not distorting the source - it's just not providing all details. Given that the preceeding sentence at the time of the addition by Nableezy said "Israeli women and girls were reportedly raped, assaulted, and mutilated by Hamas militants." I'm not seeing how we can conclude that Nableezy was trying to remove the fact that such reports were made. BilledMammal - these types of reports, which try to get someone sanctioned for something that isn't actually against policy, are not helpful. They just add to the bad blood in the topic area. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • We should just refer this to Arbcom, as we did two and a half months ago. This type of case should be looked at by a committee, with many parties providing evidence and analysis. There's already the ARCA and the case request, do we really need more hands in this? AE is too small scale to address the depth of allegations of this sort. Also, Not too impressed with the "lol" style rudeness... I agree with Seraph that the rudeness is offputting while there's a section above with a rough consensus for another warning, and the history of warnings and sanctions. This will probably be the time they change their behavior, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, well, I've learned my lesson that no other admins feel that Nableezy's brusqueness rises to a level beyond a warning so I'm not sticking my neck out again on that particular situation. I've said my piece on where I think warnings should stop and sanctions should begin, but I appear to be out of step with the other admins that comment often here, so I didn't even bother. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As for the evidence, looking at User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA RM statistics provides, in my view, more than somewhat incosistent positions. I see, for instance it isnt even close on common name, attack is exponentially more commonly used than massacre, Only highly partisan or non-reliable sources use "massacre" as a title, which would only be allowed as POVTITLE if it were the WP:COMMONNAME, and several sources flat out say this is known as the Flour Massacre, it is the common name on one hand and per Talk:Netiv_HaAsara_massacre#Requested_move_10_October_2023 where editors successfully argued that the killing of a much smaller number of civilians meant that the article should be titled "massacre". Netiv HaAsara massacre had 22 people killed, here we have over five times the number of civilians killed. The idea that only when Israeli civilians are indiscriminately targeted and killed is what is a massacre is what is "far too POV". and Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024 June (the Engineer's Building airstrike section) on the other when arguing against COMMONNAME arguments.
    The thing is, as my colleagues have said, it takes a lot to prove this type of NPOV editing, and this is all way beyond the limits of what we should be looking at here. There are 24 discussions linked to at the RM stats evidence page, and the claim evidence against Nableezy is another couple dozen diffs and a thousand words. That is way over the AE limit, and we're talking about needing to see more. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Nableezy, WP:POINT applies if you're using criteria you disagree with to ask[ing] for systemic bias to be addressed, especially if you're challenging one move because another move was closed in a way you disagreed with. This is changing your normal argument in these discussions away from criteria in order to address a perceived POV issue. Unfortunately WP:OTHERSTUFF exists and closures that we disagree with are made. I agree that arguments not based in policy shouldn't be weighed in consensus discussions, and I've had many appeals of my closures because of down-weighting or disregarding non-policy compliant arguments, but saying "the other side did it there" is just making a point.
    At Al Bureij killings you did suggest a move to killings after another editor did, and you also responded to a concern about the NPOV of the original title of massacre with And how would you describe the killing of ten civilians including three children?. At Flour massacre you supported per another editor who said With IDF statements acknowledging shooting at least 10 people on the scene, and multiple reports of dozens of gunshot wounds (with no other shooters alleged), I think we're in massacre territory even if the others killed turned out to have died in panic, from fearful truck drivers etc. Calling for parity in titles again is fine, but your argument was based on personal interpretation of what makes a massacre. Your other diffs are fine, or good. This is a reasonable compromise, although your first reply was fine remaining at massacre with no mention of COMMONNAME.
    This is why this needs looking at in a different venue. As Ealdgyth says in a section above, I cannot see how even with quadrupled word and diff allowances AE could possibly begin to investigate such a nebulous thing as is alleged here. There's simply too much here. We can't, with our limited setup, determine how often you argue for commonname versus I think we're in massacre territory. That's why this report should be handled in the venue designed specifically for that. To be clear, I'm not saying that you're violating NPOV, merely that there's enough evidence to make it worth looking at and that this isn't the venue to look at it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Zero0000, Every single regular editor in every single contentious area will be in trouble if you pick their edits apart under a microscope. That is why you have a committee elected to sort through and discuss such evidence and determine if there is a problem that needs solving, rather than leaving it up to the same 3-5 administrators at AE who have already told that committee that reports such as this are beyond what AE is set up to handle. Admins in this section have said they would need to see more evidence, but this report is already far over the permitted word and diff allotment. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • When I saw Nableezy at AE pop up on my watchlist I figured this was going to be renewed attention to the long simmering report above. I am in general alignment with Vanamonde in both the fact that I haven't gone through this in detail and what NPOV means; if the sources are covering the two sides differently so should we. If the strongest evidence of Nableezy falling short on this stem from 10 or 11 months ago, I don't think there is anything for us to do in that regard. I'm a little more sympathetic to the "refer conduct that is at borderline warning level to ArbCom" (meaning conduct that just barely crosses, or doesn't, the line of conduct violation); on my mind is this finding of fact I largely wrote about AE enforcement in a similar topic area and where I expressed doubt that I would have done better as an AE admin when voting for it. That said I don't think in either this report or the one above we've just focused on the "easy" parts, I continue to find Nableezy not at all the worst offender - by a clear margin - in the previous report, and for me the conduct in this report we're all talking about is a "do better" outcome not even a "formal warning" outcome. But having guidance from ArbCom on how they want to see this enforced is why we have an elected ArbCom and so I suppose referring to them does make sense for this and the previous filing. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:SEALIONING is incredibly tedious to prove -- it can easily take 20 diffs, and sometimes more to show that the issue is ongoing or widespread -- and even if you've brought those diffs here or to ANI, no one wants to assess them because that many diffs are daunting to go through. One almost has to be involved to get it. I don't know what the answer is to this. I don't know whether it's something AE can be expected to deal with. But it is a real and frustrating problem for well-intentioned editors working anywhere, much less at CTOPs, and as a project we need to find some way to handle this. Valereee (talk) 15:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Selfstudier, maybe? It requires dedication, probably...but maybe we have enough of that in CTOPs, at least? Valereee (talk) 16:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gianluigi02

Page blocked for a week by ScottishFinnishRadish. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 17:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Gianluigi02

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Gianluigi02 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Engaged in edit-warring at November 2024 Amsterdam attack, violating WP:1RR and WP:3RR. Reverts include, but aren't limited to:

  1. 13:33, 8 November 2024
  2. 13:16, 8 November 2024
  3. 13:04, 8 November 2024
  4. 12:24, 8 November 2024
  5. 12:05, 8 November 2024
  6. 12:06, 8 November 2024
  7. 11:46, 8 November 2024
  8. 11:45, 8 November 2024

When asked to self-revert, instead promised to continue edit-warring.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 14:16, 15 July 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

13:55, 8 November 2024

Discussion concerning Gianluigi02

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Gianluigi02

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Gianluigi02

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Butterscotch Beluga

There is consensus among uninvolved admins that Butterscotch Beluga's editing does not qualify as gaming. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Butterscotch Beluga

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Chess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Butterscotch Beluga (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

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Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:PIA4, specifically the implied ban on gaming edits to bypass the 500/30 rule.
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 2024-10-28 Makeandtoss (who I'm not accusing of anything) starts an RfC on the Jerusalem Post.
  2. 2024-10-28 On this date, Butterscotch Beluga has around two hundred edits (after creating their account in June)
  3. 2024-11-11 Butterscotch Beluga makes 500 edits in the span of two weeks. This uptick happens almost immediately after the RfC is posted.
  4. 2024-11-112024-11-11 Shows up to comment on an RfC calling the Jerusalem Post unreliable and defend CoolAndUniqueUsername.
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Participated in process about the area of conflict (such as a request or appeal at AE, AN or an Arbitration Committee process page), on 2024-11-04.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Also made their account within a day of CoolAndUniqueUsername.[196] [197]

@Butterscotch Beluga: You made over 250 edits in the week after the RfC was posted,[198] more than all of the edits you've made on your account prior to that date. Any non-RfC related reasons you decided you needed to rush EC? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Butterscotch Beluga CoolAndUniqueUsername

Discussion concerning Butterscotch Beluga

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Butterscotch Beluga

I'll be honest, I didn't know this source was being discussed until I was checking sources for November 2024 Amsterdam attacks &, as I couldn't find the Jerusalem Post listed at perennial sources, I checked to see if there were discussion on it. I'll be clear that, no, I don't hold them in high regard as a source, but I did not think it'd be unreasonable for me to participate there. I guess I'm sorry for being a newer editor who wants to contribute to a topic I know about.

In regards to the accusation of gaming, I understand in hindsight why it looks sketchy, so apologies for that. I've honestly been wanting to go through & remove deprecated/unreliable sources & would actually like to get back to doing that, but I've recently discovered that every minor edit I make in this topic becomes surprisingly exhausting & time consuming.

I would like to note however that this is the second time Chess has accused (or implied in this case, if you want to be pedantic) an editor in that RFC of being a WP:SPA. I do understand this is a rather low-trust topic area (in a way, rightfully so), but I genuinely did not mean to rush towards extended confirmed. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I realize I should comment specifically on my defense of @CoolAndUniqueUsername . I like to read every comment before giving my opinion & saw a long tangent regarding accusations towards them.
Looking into it, I saw they were incorrect claims & wanted to set the record straight.
I can't vouch for @CoolAndUniqueUsername's intent or potential malfeasance as an editor, but the details brought against them were factually incorrect & I'm a stickler for details. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chess Again, I didn't intend to rush EC, but I did want to contribute to the wiki in some way. I'm a little too anxious to make large main space edits, so I thought I could help by sorting through & tagging deprecated sources because I didn't think anyone else would want to do it.
Recently I've been going through Rate Your Music citations as there's a boatload of them scattered across rather minor articles. Again, I'd like to apologize for accidently causing what seems to've become a scene.
@ScottishFinnishRadish Would it be considered a bad idea to continue tagging deprecated sources while this case is open or would it be ok for me to do that as long as it's unrelated to WP:PIA? Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Butterscotch Beluga

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I've looked into this before, and found that the totality of the edits has enough substance where I didn't take unilateral action. The lines around gaming are blurry, and there's no solid consensus to be found, so I'm interested in what other admins think of their rush to 500. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Absent any further input, I'll be closing this as no action in the next day or so. The line for gaming EC and if simply rushing simple but constructive edits qualifies really needs to be clarified by the community before I'd be comfortable pulling permissions in edge cases like this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Butterscotch Beluga, you can continue tagging the sources. I don't think there was ever a question that the tags were acceptable. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The work done was unique to each page but was also seemingly done to "qualify" for ECR despite what was written here. The charges of gaming would be less compelling if there was also some effort, at least some of the time, to remediate the problem rather htan just tag it. But, at least under current ArbCom guidance, I'm not sure I'm ready to call this gaming because there was time and attention paid to each edit made. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    They also engaged at talk pages of other contentious articles, which ticks the experience box that ECR hopes to establish. It's pretty clear that there was a rush to get the permission, but absent community consensus on gaming we're at about the same place. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • While this certainly looks rather like a race to EC, I don't see these edits as trivial or pointless enough to meet the common definition of "gaming". I would also note that the user has continued such work even after gaining EC, which is another mark against being pure "gaming" to reach EC. Absent any evidence of actual misconduct, I would not support any sanction here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:58, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is EC gaming - an obvious sleeper suddenly becoming active and indiscriminately reverting apparently every IP edit over the course of about twelve minutes. A five-month-old account making consistent edits (and edits related to this topic) consistently throughout that time is not. It just isn't - it's a new user learning the ropes. This is plainly a witch hunt. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy

Withdrawn, with apologies to Nableezy and to everyone for the time wasted. I wasn't going to be the one to close this to make sure I took my licks, but with Nableezy's suggestion, I'm going and closing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nableezy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:ARBPIA4
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 07:08, 12 November 2024 The text also presupposes Israel has a right to exist, another claim Wikipedia cannot make in its own voice.
  2. 12:29, 12 November 2024 Did you think Wikipedia is supposed to be putting contested claims in its own voice?
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 90 day topic ban for BATTLEGROUND, reduced to 30 on appeal


If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Made another editor aware of the CTOP


Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I am making this report as an uninvolved administrator to elicit the opinions of other administrators about the contents of the diffs presented. I will be putting my thoughts in the administrator's section. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[199]

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nableezy

Um, the idea that any state has a right to exist is a contested topic in international law. Wikipedia does not present contested views as though they were uncontested facts. We have an article on the topic, right to exist, largely written by Buidhe. This is utterly surreal. See also Rosguill's statement. Barkeep49, nobody discusses a German or US right to exist, that simply is not a topic that anybody in academia discusses. Because it isnt asserted, basically ever. States exist by virtue of existing. There is no inherent right of a state to exist. People have a right to exist, states exist when they have the power to assert their existence. See for example one United Nations special rapporteur discussing this. Objecting to a user inserting a partisan talking point, sourced to a partisan newspaper (a newspaper for an international law topic!), meriting this reaction is absurd. I have no idea how anybody can fault me for thinking that SFR has been fishing for a way to sanction me at this point. This is unreal. nableezy - 19:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not pertinent? Did you even read the diff from BM? He put in the narrative voice that this book denied Israel's right to exist. In what world is saying that Wikipedia's voice is proclaiming the fact of such a right, and that it should not be taking a position on such a contested claim, not pertinent???? I also object to this insane set up in which an admin is playing the role of both prosecutor and judge. An admin who has made a series of statements that are both false and prejudicial to the result of the complaint they themselves opened. nableezy - 22:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish you want to answer how you can possibly say my discussing what was put in the article is either inflammatory or not pertinent? If the only thing you care about is uninvolved admins, as the views of the peons may be discarded, there are a couple of them below me who have addressed the actual issue raised here. But I would appreciate an explanation as to how my comment was either not pertinent, given the content that was in the article, or in any way inflammatory. nableezy - 00:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish the issue was that Wikipedia was saying in its narrative voice that Israel has a right to exist. If that had been an attributed view you would have a point, but it was placed in Wikipedia's voice. I cant believe I have to explain this, but this edit has Wikipedia claiming that Israel has a right to exist. That is a contested POV, not a fact that is widely agreed upon in reliable sources, making that a NPOV violation. That you continue to say that my raising that was not pertinent is dumbfounding. And if there was an unconstructive comment made in reply to it, why didnt you bring the person who made that unconstructive reply to AE instead of me? As far as causing drama, you started a fire and are now saying why is it so hot? Did you even consider asking me why I wrote what I wrote before, once again, seeking sanctions against me? Do you find it reasonable to present an inaccurate claim against a user and then to be posting in the results section of that complaint? Do you think your initial comment was either accurate or not inflammatory? And finally, do you think it is unreasonable for me to think that you are fishing for a sanction against me, regardless of the merits of any complaint? nableezy - 00:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whose*, but I appreciate that final message and accept the apology. nableezy - 02:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish maybe close this as withdrawn? I dont want this to drag out so long I can’t reclaim the record for most threads in a single AE archive. nableezy - 14:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SimonM223

I think this is rather surreal that, at this point, we have three separate arbitration enforcement requests against one user who appears not to have violated any wikipedia policy. Regardless of the connotations of the specific example the idea that any state has a right to exist is not a universally accepted one. And, frankly, the context in which the statement was made is one of an absurd inclusion in which a source is claiming that a bromine coloring book with pictures of Palestinian journalists, Nelson Mandela and Edward Said in it is calling for the elimination of Israel simply for using the phrase "From the River to the Sea." I hope that no action is taken here. And perhaps we could go a day without another attempt to get Nableezy kicked off the island. Simonm223 (talk) 18:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49 I have read a lot of anarchist critique of politics. Such often include critiques of the state as a political form such as Society Against the State by Pierre Clastres, A Thousand Plateaus by Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari, and Theses on the Terrible Community by the Tiqqun collective. As such my personal opinion is that the idea that any state has a right to exist, as a state, is a contested one that should not be positively asserted as fact by Wikipedia and should, instead, be attributed against reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49 the sources I am using generally assert that no states have a positive right to exist and generally cast doubt on the idea that a state can, in fact, have rights as such. I would assert, if we take political philosophy seriously, then this critique can, and should, be applied against all states. Certainly including Germany and the United States. Simonm223 (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rosguill

I agree that this is a surreal request, that appears to be motivated by a lack of familiarity with contemporary historical and philosophical literature. Outside of polemic declarations by nationalists of one side or the other in political discourse, historical literature typically challenges the idea that any state has an abstract right to exist. E.g. [200], [201], [202]. Note that none of these are anarchist publications: setting aside the question of whether we *should* have states, historians and philosophers generally approach the states that they study as historical fact, not as moral propositions, and only study the question of a state's "right to exist" when a political conflict has explicitly called the issue to question in those specific terms. The discourse of handwringing over a state's right to exist is thus largely unique to protracted conflicts of self-determination, and is by far the most prominent with respect to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular. Nableezy is well within the bounds of academic discourse to note that a state's "right to exist" is not something that should be casually asserted in wikivoice. The fact that this assertion was only tangentially related to the content at issue, makes the purpose of this AE report even less clear. signed, Rosguill talk 19:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, while I do think it's possible to come to the conclusions Ivanvector identifies by reading right to exist, I think that article is somewhat lacking in its History section, which doesn't really document the phenomena I've identified here, although you can infer that something is missing by the fact that the entirety of said section being either a) prescriptive statements by 18th c. philosopher Thomas Paine and 19th c. philosopher Ernest Renan or b) a somewhat obscure citation to US mass market publication Living Age ca 1903, with no up-to-date academic citations or actual discussion of the history of the concept's use and development. I'll avoid improving the article until after this discussion has settled to avoid the impression of WP:POINT. signed, Rosguill talk 20:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Levivich

I'd like to see SFR link three RS that say Israel has a right to exist. If the negation of that claim were WP:FRINGE, it should be trivially easy to do. Levivich (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@sfr, the reason it looks like you are seeking sanctions is because you wrote In as much as any nation has a right to exist, I think the very least we're looking at a WP:FRINGE viewpoint being used to argue content and against a provided source. I know that I've blocked editors for similar comments on both the existence of Palestine and Israel. I am interested in what other administrators think about these diffs. which is you saying that you're seeking sanctions and asking if other admin agree. Otherwise, why are you asking admins about a content issue? No, you're asking admins if this is sanctionable, not for their opinion on the content dispute, but rather whether it's a conduct violation. You pointed out that you've sanctioned (blocked) other editors for similar comments. That means you're seeking sanction. It's not because of the template you used. Levivich (talk) 02:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ivanvector

I'm not directly involved in this, I just came to see what absurdity resulted in there being three sections on Nableezy here. @Barkeep49: you linked to right to exist, but did you read it? The largest section in the article, #Israel/Palestine, describes in summary many of the historical arguments surrounding the question of Israel's right to exist, a question that has been debated since at least the end of the second world war, and indeed whether such a right exists at all for any state. I don't expect we are going to settle that debate on Wikipedia, but I do think that would be enough to reject outright Wikipedia taking an affirmative stance one way or the other in that longstanding debate. Or to put it another way, do we say in wikivoice that the United States or Germany have (or don't have) a right to exist? Or is this something that's only debated in the context of nationalist conflict? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill:: I'll be the first to admit that I'm no philosopher, unless we're talking about double-entry bookkeeping; I'm going by what is written on the page.
I think we maybe have missed the point: the content in question contains the text, "In June 2024, a report surfaced about a new coloring book published in South Africa, which called for the destruction of Israel and the genocide of its inhabitants." The text was later modified to include the supposed denial of Israel's right to exist, and to attribute the destruction and genocide claim (but not the claim of rights) to one of the sources which does not have its own article. That's an extraordinary factual statement to make in Wikipedia's voice based only on explicitly Jewish sources, one of which is so unabashedly biased as to call into question its general reliability for any subject. Whoever added this evidently didn't bother to look for contrary viewpoints such as that of the book's author or publisher, other Jewish advocacy groups, or any assuredly neutral coverage whatsoever. In a rather brief search I located sources such as these which seem to suggest that this is, in fact, a rather contested opinion, and as such the highlighted content is a subtle yet severe violation of WP:NPOV. So regarding Nableezy's edits: the text does presuppose in wikivoice that Israel has a right to exist that can be denied by a colouring book, an extraordinary claim lacking appropriate sourcing; and indeed Wikipedia is not supposed to be putting contested claims of this or any nature in its own voice; therefore both of Nableezy's comments are objectively correct. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@IOHANNVSVERVS: that article is the one that SFR linked to in their opening statement, and which contained the text I highlighted above. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BilledMammal: before you put words in my mouth you should read those that I actually published. Nowhere did I suggest that Jewish-authored sources should be considered less reliable than others on this subject, other than the one which quotes extensively from the South African Zionist Federation which I called "unabashedly biased". It would be absurd to exclude Jewish voices on this - as absurd as it is to cherrypick these particular voices and exclude others. Considering that other Jewish-authored sources spoke out against the interpretation of the Jewish-authored sources that we did use, it's patently obvious that NPOV was not followed; rather, someone cherrypicked a couple of sources with the POV they came here intending to push. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 01:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS

At the top of this page there is the text "Please use this page only to:" and four reasons are listed. "To get input from other administrators" on something doesn't seem to be in line with any of those reasons. Content disgareements are also explicity said to belong at other fora, though the filer here has stated this report is "about the diffs above that say Wikipedia cannot presuppose[s] Israel has a right to exist and that it is something that should not be put in wikivoice." And now admins appear to be discussing whether or not Israel has a right to exist, something which I believe is more of a propaganda/ideological point rather than an actual matter of international law. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) (Edited significantly) 20:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

:@Barkeep49, for what reason have you linked to the Wikipedia article Calls for the destruction of Israel? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)21:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huldra3

Countries exists -or not. That is a very different question to if it has a "right to exist". I don' think any country has the "right to exist", why should I? I grew up hearing "God gave Israel to the Jews" -but I have been an agnostic/atheist since my late teens (over half a century ago), and I no longer believe in any country's "God-given right to exist", how could I? If that's a bannable offence on Wikipedia, then you better ban me, too. And ban Noam Chomsky, who "has argued that no state has the right to exist, that the concept was invented in the 1970s" (to quote our Right to exist-article.) Or:

It is a question much debated, also in academic literature (see Rosguill refs), or just google "does Israel has a right to exist?" I don't think anyone has the right to ban this opinion, even if you disagree with it, (I certainly don't want to ban anyone because they think Israel has a God-given right to exist), Huldra (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not accepting -Jewish advocacies' groups viewpoint as something we can just quote in "wiki voice" id NOT the same as "advocate for Jewish sources being classified as less reliable than non-Jewish" User:Bilad Mammal: would you have liked repeating PLO's views in "wikivoice", as if it was undisputed? Huldra (talk) 23:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bilad Mammal is making another straw man-argument: There is a huge difference between a Jewish advocacy group, and a source who happen to be Jewish. A Palestinian advocacy group can be compared with a Jewish advocacy group, IMO. The opinion of neither should be referred to as if it is uncontested, Huldra (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As for "- they may have their own issues, but being Jewish is not one of them" I totally agree, Huldra (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Andrevan

Even the PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist. For some sources see, Morris, Benny (2009-04-28). One State, Two States: Resolving the Israel/Palestine Conflict. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-15604-1., Beinart, Peter (2012). The Crisis of Zionism. Melbourne Univ. Publishing. ISBN 978-0-522-86176-1., Carter, Jimmy (2010-02-18). We Can Have Peace in the Holy Land. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-84983-065-2., Gans, Chaim (2008-06-23). A Just Zionism: On the Morality of the Jewish State. Oxford University Press, USA. ISBN 978-0-19-534068-6. Andre🚐 22:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BilledMammal

Since it is being discussed, just contributing here to say that this edit was done to align our content with the source, which says A controversial new children's coloring book appeared on local bookshelves in South Africa (SA,) calling for the eradication of Israel and genocide of all who live there, according to a report by the South African Jewish Report (SAJR) from the beginning of June. and The new coloring book - titled "From the River to the Sea" - excludes Jews and Israelis, portraying them negatively as oppressors while promoting antisemitic narratives and denying Israel's right to exist.

I will add that I am very discomforted by the fact that some editors advocate for Jewish sources being classified as less reliable than non-Jewish sources on this topic. The position that Israeli sources are unreliable is debatable, but extending it to all Jewish sources, as some editors do or appear to do, comes far too close to the "dual loyalty" canard. BilledMammal (talk) 22:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra:

would you have liked repeating PLO's views in "wikivoice", as if it was undisputed

Saying a Jewish source is comparable to the PLO is equally inappropriate, and for the same reasons. Jewish sources are as acceptable to use on this topic as any other source - they may have their own issues, but being Jewish is not one of them.
I don't want to derail this report, so I'm going to withdraw from the discussion now. BilledMammal (talk) 23:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know I said I would withdraw, but I want to add one more thing. Palestinian and Israeli advocacy groups are equivalent. Palestinian and Jewish advocacy groups aren't, and saying they are is the "dual loyalty" canard. BilledMammal (talk) 23:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ivanvector: Your words were That's an extraordinary factual statement to make in Wikipedia's voice based only on explicitly Jewish sources, emphasis mine. We are already well off-topic, and I've now promised to leave twice now, so I'll leave your words speak for themselves should you decide to reply further. BilledMammal (talk) 01:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LokiTheLiar

While I'm not totally uninvolved in the topic area, I'm uninvolved for this specific dispute and I frankly think the idea that this deserves to be at AE is completely ridiculous to the point where it hurts the credibility of both the other two sections here with Nableezy's name on them and SFR's credibility as an admin to boot. This is just so clearly bog-standard content dispute stuff that I can't even imagine why SFR thought it was reasonable to bring it here. Loki (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish The issue is that you even thought this was worth bringing here, though. Loki (talk) 00:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Silver seren

Well, all three of the related sections on this page are ridiculous. The only POV pushing I see being brought up here is by ScottishFinnishRadish in making this embarrassing report. And Barkeep49 for even entertaining this. I'm ashamed for both of you right now. You're literally trying to use a content disagreement being rationally discussed as an argument for sanctioning. Even your statements below are just actively arguing the content dispute from your own POV and not as an actual AE issue. Just shameful. SilverserenC 00:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

This is ridiculous. Nableezy didn't say that Israel has no right to exist. Nableezy only wrote that Wikipedia shouldn't say so in wikivoice. Nableezy is correct and policy-conformant. We should not state in wikivoice that any state has a right to exist or not. For example, Wikipedia should not say in wikivoice that the USA has the right to exist either (will I be up on charges now?). Zerotalk 01:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Daveosaurus

User:ScottishFinnishRadish, once you have climbed down from the Reichstag and changed out of your Spider-Man outfit, while it may be an interesting discussion to have about whether any nation-state at all has a "right to exist", this is not the place for it. In fact there may not be a place for it on Wikpedia at all (Village Pump, maybe?). There is an administrators' noticeboard for discussion matters with admins.

To start you thinking: does Palestine have an inherent right to exist? Does Western Sahara have an inherent right to exist? Does Scotland have an inherent right to exist? Did Yugoslavia have an inherent right to exist? Daveosaurus (talk) 05:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Parabolist

Will no one rid SFR of this troublesome priest? Parabolist (talk) 11:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TarnishedPath

The fact that there are three separate reports here on Nableezy is absurd. If the situation is really that bad this should be a ArbCom referral where all participants (including fillers and others commenting in the AE referrals) are parties. TarnishedPathtalk 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • I've opened this report to get input from other administrators about the diffs above that say Wikipedia cannot presuppose[s] Israel has a right to exist and that it is something that should not be put in wikivoice. This is a diff showing the content at issue.
    In as much as any nation has a right to exist, I think the very least we're looking at a WP:FRINGE viewpoint being used to argue content and against a provided source. I know that I've blocked editors for similar comments on both the existence of Palestine and Israel. I am interested in what other administrators think about these diffs. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    IOHANNVSVERVS, the Arbitration committee procedures say that admins can bring things here for a broader view at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Expectations of administrators, which is what I was seeking in this situation. I'm glad I did, as well, because this discussion is providing a lot of context and information.
    As for the FRINGE issue, it's not the philosophical question about the rights of states, it's about the application of that philosophy to our article content. Much as we don't have to presuppose the right of Palestine to exist in order to use sources discussing the illegality of settlements and removal of Palestinians from Gaza for Israeli resettlement we don't have to presuppose the right of Israel to exist to use sources about a book, or to add an attributed claim about what a source said about a book.
    Another concern I had was the language is provocative. The "right to exist" question, which I didn't see as being pertinent in this discussion can easily lead to escalation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Nableezy, the presupposition was not pertinent to what was added, as a claim does not have to be true in order for a party to deny it. Israel need not have a right to exist for someone to deny it. As for it being provocative, there was a unconstructive comment made in reply to it. Having seen something I thought was concerning I thought I'd try this method to reach out for additional viewpoints. And here we are. Worked super well, was very constructive, and didn't backfire and cause even more drama. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree that saying that a book denied something is saying in wikivoice that the thing is true. That's a difference in interpretation, and that happens. That's also why I believed that what you said was concerning. I brought it here and explained my interpretation and asked what other admins felt.
    Yes, I knew there was a fair chance that it could pan out this way, but I was hoping it wouldn't. If I were able to try this again I'd try to frame it differently than a report, perhaps just as a message like the Fascism discussion above. I can certainly understand why you think this is a normal report seeking sanctions, and that's on me for using the standard template. I'm sorry about that. I'm sure that also contributes to your belief that I'm fishing for sanctions. It's pretty unlikely that I'll disabuse you of that idea, but that's also why I used this method. I'd rather bring up my concerns and be told I'm wrong than unilaterally take action and still be just as wrong.
    When adminning, especially doing Arbitration enforcement, you're reliant on your own judgement, and everyone is wrong sometimes. It's pretty clear my judgement was off in this case, so again, sorry to you specifically Nableezy, and sorry to everyone else who's time is wasted through my mistake. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    LokiTheLiar, I've just made a post on the talk page about this, but it comes down to the uninvolved administrator refers a matter to AE to elicit the opinion of other administrators in the arbitration processes. My hope was to have a discussion with other uninvolved administrators about the diffs. I haven't done this up to now because, in part, I knew that this outcome was possible, if not likely. Unfortunately there's no other "get the opinion of uninvolved administrators" method available. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @‌Simonm223: in what other contexts are we saying that the right to exist is controversial enough that we can't say it in Wikivoice? For Simon, Nableezy, or anyone: how do the reliable sources on this topic, Calls for the destruction of Israel address the right to exist? Barkeep49 (talk) 19:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Simonm223: you've provided sources that contest the right to exist. That perspective, but not only that perspective, is certainly represented at right to exist. But that wasn't my question. My question was in what other contexts are we saying that the right to exist is controversial enough that we can't say it in Wikivoice? I am unaware - for instance - of any controversey over saying in Wikivoice that the United States or Germany have rights to exist. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Southasianhistorian8

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Southasianhistorian8

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:ARBIPA
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 21:37, November 12 Ignores WP:ONUS, edit warring in order to restore POV-pushing/WP:COATRACK content after that content had been removed by Nyttend.
  2. 02:11, November 14 Repeats the same WP:COATRACK behaviour at another article, just over 24hrs after Nyttend (a longstanding administrator) warned them about WP:COATRACK on their talk page.
  3. 08:49 November 14 Personal attack towards me on their userpage in response to sharing my concern about diff2 and agreeing with Nyttend, claims I'm "piling on my t/p over a topic that does not concern you as a form of petty bullying/harassment and revenge." (bolding mine; Nyttend was the only other user with a message on their talk page)
  4. 10:05 November 14 Leaves a retaliatory message on my talk page, spurned by my reverting of their edit in diff2.
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 20:47, 2022 May 30 Indeff'd for abusing multiple accounts in the area of conflict as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Suthasianhistorian8/Archive. Unblocked in December 2022 following a standard offer.
  2. 19:06, 2021 November 11 48hrs for edit warring in the area of conflict.
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:31, 2021 November 27 (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

SAH continues to push their anti-Sikh POV into articles. Diff1 shows them adding repetitive content which was already covered in the article, not to mention that it has its own article. Repeating in such detail can only be interpreted as an attempt to draw a equivalency between Khalistan movement and the Canada-India row that is not supported by sources.

Diff2 shows them doing them same at Hardeep Singh Nijjar, using that article as a COATRACK to add content about a tangentially relevant person, content which belong in an article about that person, and attempting to further their POV that Nijjar was a "militant".

Diffs 3 and 4 showcase an unwillingness to self-reflect when conduct concerns are brought up, getting defensive with personal attacks, retaliatory warnings, and digging up of past dirt (which they already mentioned in the last AE thread about them). At no point do they acknowledge WP:COATRACK either in response to Nyttend or myself.

Contribution history shows they nearly-exclusively edit about Sikh topics, suppressing positive information and restoring negative information. Talk page history shows numerous NPOV warnings. At this point, we either have a LISTENing issue or a WP:NOTHERE issue. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@103.251.217.66: I disagree with your evaluation of this as only a content dispute. I am reporting conduct; specifically violations of WP:EW (after the user made an agreement to never edit war[203] as part of their SOCK unblock request), WP:NPOV, and WP:NPA. I am aware that AE does not and should never rule on content. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  01:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Has SAH gotten a waiver of the word limit that I'm not aware of? They are at 1552 by my count. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  02:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[204]

Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Southasianhistorian8

Statement by Southasianhistorian8

Talk about desperation. Any outsider can take a look at my handling on Khalistan movement and see that I handled myself very responsibly as opposed to GhostofDanGurney who keeps lobbing personal attacks at editors he dislikes. I only made one revert, and when Nyttend posted on my t/p, I told him I would not revert further, and initiated a discussion on the t/p. The content I added was literally a direct result of the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar, a Khalistan activist, and the RCMP's allegations of India's operations against Khalistan activists, so clearly the event is relevant to the page at least to some degree and I'm extremely confident that editors at 3O or DRN will agree. The content there wasn't even authored by me, I copied it (with attribution) from the Canada-India diplomatic row. If I was so biased, wouldn't I be trying to suppress this information? I figured that precluding such a consequential event would be irresponsible and make it appear as though the page was skewed towards a pro-India narrative. What more do you want from me?

Now, in line with GhostofDanGurney hastily making edits to get one over me such as here-where he engaged in interpretation of a primary source to publicy discredit a figure, as confirmed by ScottishFinnishRadish on A/E, here where he falsely accused me of plagiarizing his workNow he falsely called Arsh Dalla a "low profile" individual thus wrongly invoking BLPCRIME; Ghost could have spent at least 10 minutes researching this guy or at least initiated a respectful discussion on the t/p instead of piling attacks on my t/p. Instead he made a rude condescending post on my t/p, threatening to escalate matters and stating that I need to confirm whether I understand Wikipedia's policies to him, as if he's my boss or something. He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments, instead coming here to again win a content dispute illegitimately.

Now just days after his failed A/E request where he was also criticized for making personal attacks and making nonconstructive edits, he's again wasting everyone's tie over this drama. This ridiculous BATTLEGROUND behaviour should not be given carte-blanche here.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostofDanGurney- Is one revert on the Khalistan movement page, in which I believed the removal from Nyttend to be a simple misunderstanding and subsequently went on the t/p, and zero reverts on the Hardeep Singh Nijjar page - for a grand total of one revert considered "edit warring". If so, you've edit warred hundreds of times as well Ghost. You've also told people to "fuck themselves", called them "thots" and "hypocrites" and more; I've never come close to saying something like that. Again, I strongly urge admins to issue a block for these juvenile insults. Literally every disagreement on his t/p is met with a nasty response-[205], [206]. This ill-researched statement is like the last time when you falsely accused me of plagiarizing your work.

Regarding, allegations of BLPCRIME or Dalla's low-profile/non public figure status-I've laid out a comprehensive case here-which shows extensive media coverage surrounding Dalla + sources in which Dalla clearly gave interviews to the media thus making him a high profile person as per Wiki policy. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 03:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (103.251.217.66 (talk))

Statement by Simonm223

I would concur that both editors should probably both get some space from each other for a few days. A short-duration 2-way iBan might be a reasonable remedy here. Most of the edits in contention from both editors don't seem disruptive although both could be a bit more careful with sourcing to avoid primary sources and to ensure that secondary sources are included in major edits. The only point of contention I'd take with either's position (as I don't think either is actually entirely wrong so much as operating at cross-purposes) surrounds the interpretation of WP:BLPCRIME. Arsh Dalla is not a public figure per the definition laid out by WP:PUBLICFIGURE because his notoriety is entirely from the circumstances of him having been accused of a crime. As such the guidance, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime very much applies here. Simonm223 (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Southasianhistorian8 there is a key difference between Bishnoi and Dalla. Bishnoi stood trial and was convicted. My understanding is that Canada has declined to arrest and extradite Dalla. As such, since he is a free person and considered innocent both under Canadian law and by Wikipedia's standards, and since all the media coverage around him is about whether he did any criminal acts, we should not be commenting on him on Wikipedia. I hope this clarifies WP:BLPCRIME for you. Simonm223 (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly my attempt to provide some friendly help regarding the BLPCRIME issue has left me a bit more concerned about WP:IDHT than I was at the outset. Especially since WP:OSE statements do not override BLP policy. Simonm223 (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Swatjester

Regardless of which side is correct on the merits of the arguments, it does *not* help SAH's case that they've presented their opposition to Ghost of Dan Gurney in an uncivil and excessively inflammatory manner. "he clearly has an extreme vendetta against and is desperate to hound me off this page" fails to assume good faith. So does accusing them of having "a long history of suppressing any critical information on the page... saw this opportunity and rushed to try to hound me further." Vaguely handwaving at a previous report does not suffice to make that anything less than an aspersion. Saying "I find it reprehensible that this bullying behaviour has carte-blanche on Wikipedia" is both uncivil, inflammatory, and presumes that the behavior is 1) bullying, and 2) has "carte-blanche" despite this AE request existing and there having been discussion about it in multiple talk page forums already. Regardless of how this AE gets decided, I'd admonish SAH to find a more constructive, less inflammatory way of expressing their positions. I think all involved would do well to be reminded that in a contentious topic area you need to be on your best behavior. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 21:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Southasianhistorian8

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

GhostOfDanGurney

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning GhostOfDanGurney

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User against whom enforcement is requested
GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log


Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Topic ban on India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan related topics.
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 19 September 2023 Tendentious edit warring alleging "anti-Canada POV pushing" despite numerous editors' objections and RS
  2. 21 October 2023 Admits to harassing another user he was in a content dispute with on Twitter.
  3. 25 October 2024 Personal attacks Inflammatory edit summary, accusing of cherrypicking and being without evidence, even though most of the article included content for which evidence was not publicly disclosed and WP:OWN behaviour
  4. 22 October 2024 More personal attacks inflammatory edit summaries, also acknolwedged by ScottishFinnishRadish in the 1st AE
  5. 26 October 2024 Replaces neutrally worded sentence with an inflammatory and tendentious interpretation of a primary source as acknowledged by ScottishFinnishRadish, clearly attempting to publicly discredit the diplomat
  6. 26 October 2024 Files an A/E request over a content dispute, wasting a large amount of community time
  7. 26 October 2024 Falsely claimed I plagiarized his work
  8. 15 November 2024 WP:IDHT, brazenly ignoring sources right above him which explicitly state that Dalla's alleged criminal network was linked to Khalistani militancy
  9. 14 November 2024 Makes an inflammatory and condescending post on my talk page, accusing me of WP:NPOV violations and threatening to escalate matters before engaging on the t/p.
  10. 14 November 2024 Files another A/E request days after his first failed one over 1(!) revert and me responding to his escalation on my t/p. Instead of following WP:BRD, Ghost is filing frivolous reports forcing this platform to be a substitute for content issues. He did not engage with my arguments on the t/p of the Nijjar page which I laid out right after he reverted me, instead he immediately filed a 2nd report, then waited multiple hours to respond to my points on the t/p. He cannot even abide by Wikipedia's most fundamental policy which is to discuss when you have a disagreement with someone, not intimidate them through reports.
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 14 August 2020 Blocked for personal attacks
  2. 19 June 2018 Blocked for edit warring
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
  • Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 21 October 2023 by Kautilya3.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

GhostOfDanGurney has a history of being incredibly rude and juvenile when engaged in content disputes. He regularly calls people names, assumes bad faith or incites drama through his inflammatory bheaviour-Be gone thot, Actually, I'll let people see how much of a hypocrite you are for posting this fucking bullshit., [207], [208], [209], [210], among numerous other diffs. Constantly exhibits tendentious and WP:OWN behaviour in articles-[211], [212], [213] + [214], [215], [216].

Really Swatjester, I'd urge you to read all the diffs and then come back and seriously tell me that Ghost doesn't have an issue with personal attacks and assuming bad faith, apparently calling people "thots" and telling them to "go fuck themselves" isn't a personal attack. Apparently having to deal with numerous frivolous reports over petty content disputes and 1 revert and being bullied is something I should just take and not complain about. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even barring the personal attacks, how is it fair that he's non stop filing frivolous reports against me-in the most recent A/E he filed, it was literally over one revert, content he personally didn't like, and me responding to his escalation on my t/p (pretty ironic considering what he says on his own t/p). Instead of engaging with my points on the article's t/p, he filed a 2nd A/E. How is that not brazen harassment and bullying and a major waste of time? How in the world is that not a weaponization of A/E to get one over an editor they dislike? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GhostOfDanGurney The definition of militancy is as follows: "the use of confrontational or violent methods in support of a political or social cause." Militancy almost always involves criminal behaviour and actions, does it not? Otherwise it wouldn't be called militancy, it'd be called activism. A criminal network alleged to be close the Khalistan movement apparently does not mean violent actions taken out in order to support the movement? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[217]


Discussion concerning GhostOfDanGurney

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GhostOfDanGurney

In their statement in the above request against them, they said, "He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments". So I commented on the talk page,[218] saying that I opposed the content as (in addition to the BLPCRIME issue) there was already adequate sourced content on Hardeep Singh Nijjar#Allegations of militant activity (it's already the largest section of the article). This had nothing to do with the additional sources SAH presented to the talk page after I had removed the content.

I then wrote a sentence on the wording "criminal network" as used by SAH in their >greentext proposal which made no corroboration to any militancy, just allusions to "gangsters". It did not mention the KTF by name, and the preceding quote they posted only mentions "the Khalistan cause". An IDHT charge here is a long stretch that shows a misunderstanding of the policy, and to use the phrase "brazenly ignoring" here is an assumption of bad faith. If my above request doesn't result in sanctions against SAH, this frivolous request should. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  07:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What does any of that re: militancy have to do with me "act[ing] as though [my] point must be accepted by the community when [I] have been told otherwise.", per WP:IDHT? I don't understand at all how my talk page comment violates IDHT. What about that specific comment is actionable here? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  08:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning GhostOfDanGurney

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is unnecessary, and retaliatory. Spot checking of the diffs alleging personal attacks, I don't see anything remotely of the sort. Going back and digging up diffs from 2018 and 2021 is likewise unhelpful and represents a battleground mentality towards weaponizing an AE action that is deeply concerning. Honestly if SAH thought this was a good idea after not listening to the advice about dropping the stick and behaving more civilly on the other AE request, it probably merits boomerang sanctions to stop the disruption. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 04:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SAH, I've looked at the diffs. The ones from 2024 don't appear actionable, and I think your characterizations of them as personal attacks are a stretch. The "thots" and "go fuck themselves" diffs were, as I mentioned, from 2018 and 2021, not directed at you, and were comments from his own talk page (which is a space where he is entitled to ask people to stop/leave within the confines of WP:USERTALKSTOP, and though it doesn't excuse the incivility of the language, we tend to give a degree of leeway in those cases.) So I don't see the relevance of those edits to your dispute with GhostofDanGurney today. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 04:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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